Softimage still worth it as Modeling package?

[Mathaeus]

Couldn't resist to describe , let's say, selecting an edge loop in Maya, using marking menu ( we knows, thing that appear somewhere on top of RMB context menu in SI).
So, once you're in edge selection mode, it's ctrl + rmb, move mouse about 100 pixels diagonally, to open another menu with 'edge ring utilities' or something, from there, again diagonally in another direction to another menu - from this point, there's chance to do what you wanted (if you're still remembering what you wanted to do...).
Most likely my fault, my wrong idea, how context menu is for quick work - in Maya, context menu is a sort of browser.... or at least, it was in times of Maya 6.5, when they added the feature.

Another part of story is, really quickly I was able to find appropriate MELs. Not 100% sure, but it's looking as possible mission to customize the all marking menus. Something I can do, while 'make it faster' is something I *can not* do, obviously. That is, only alternative to Maya I could imagine when it comes to modeling, is Max ( not bad at all for my taste) - but Max is hell expensive, when counting all necessary plugins. So, Maya LT and wonderful world of MEL, seems to be a my future of modeling...

[luceric]

Well normally a modeler would just double click to select a edge loop in Maya, just like you would in Softimage or modo, but do you know how to use a marking menu? It's not obvious from the way you describe it. After you look up the gesture using the menu you never open an look at the menu like you're trying to use it like a rmb context menu. You just the the zigzag gesture quickly and be menu never comes up.

[Mathaeus]

Well normally a modeler would just double click to select a edge loop in Maya, just like you would in Softimage or modo, but do you know how to use a marking menu? It's not obvious from the way you describe it. After you look up the gesture using the menu you never open an look at the menu like you're trying to use it like a rmb context menu. You just the the zigzag gesture quickly and be menu never comes up.

Of course edge loop is just an example. Regarding gestures, heard something, but for now, it seems to be more comfortable to just 'lobotomize' the app, even on price of loosing some functionality. After all, already feel as small master of 'lobotomizing' the Softimage, also sow how another people are doing the same with one my small product.
Anyway thanks for help.

P.S. just be constructive, to explain a little better: if I understood correctly what you described, that 'gesture' approach expect me to already know what I want to do. But, in many cases, actually I do not know what I want to do in advance - so here's 3d app to supply me a list of options, nicely. In one row like in SI, or in four rows like in Max, doesn't matter - but, all at once.

[MauricioPC]

That is, only alternative to Maya I could imagine when it comes to modeling, is Max ( not bad at all for my taste) - but Max is hell expensive, when counting all necessary plugins. So, Maya LT and wonderful world of MEL, seems to be a my future of modeling...

For modeling, I find Max almost perfect out-of-the-box, in comparison with other modelers. Of course, you can always bundle a plugin to improve some operations, but having the stack is still making life easier when modeling (in comparison to Maya or Modo).

[Mathaeus]

For modeling, I find Max almost perfect out-of-the-box, in comparison with other modelers. Of course, you can always bundle a plugin to improve some operations, but having the stack is still making life easier when modeling (in comparison to Maya or Modo).

Yeah of course Max always had easy to use modifier stack. I think nobody hesitated to use it. But, there are other things in mix, too. I took me about few hours to get happy with animation editor (oops, graph) in Maya, editable motion paths are small wonder. And... one especially nice: found two MELs responsible for one sub marking menu, just removed them from folder, to see what will happen - and, WOW, Maya launched regularly, just displaying nothing instead (for comparison SI explodes after such 'action') So, I feel one beautiful friendship with Maya lady, in future

[luceric]

Of course edge loop is just an example. Regarding gestures, heard something, but for now, it seems to be more comfortable to just 'lobotomize' the app, even on price of loosing some functionality. After all, already feel as small master of 'lobotomizing' the Softimage, also sow how another people are doing the same with one my small product.
Anyway thanks for help.

P.S. just be constructive, to explain a little better: if I understood correctly what you described, that 'gesture' approach expect me to already know what I want to do. But, in many cases, actually I do not know what I want to do in advance - so here's 3d app to supply me a list of options, nicely. In one row like in SI, or in four rows like in Max, doesn't matter - but, all at once.

This is a bit of a straw man discussion because not everything is in the context menu of XSI, and it's also on a weird key (Alt+RMB), and that's not how you would select an edge loop or ring, typically. And you do "know what you want in advance", which is to select an edge loop. You might search for it at first, but you will very quickly learn where commands that you do a hundreds time are, just as you have learn where stuff is (or not) in that Alt+RMB context menu in XSI, or the keyboard shortcut (first letter of menu item) to select these in the XSI context menu.

To select an edge loop with the marking menu -- again not the most convenient way to do it -- you would hold down Ctrl and drag the mouse north east quickly. The goal of the marking menus is that it works sort of like a normal "search for the command" menu for newbies, but once you become and expert all you do is the zigzag mouse gesture, without ever looking at the UI. It's type of UI that follows users going from beginners to advanced.

That Ctrl+RMB menu is called the "convert selection' menu, there are other ones, and you can create your own with the marking menu editor (no mel required)

Just as in XSI, it's important to look at the hotkeys for modeling in Maya 2016, because just as XSI it's a lot about hotkeys and not so much a hunt-and-peck in the menu thing.

[Mathaeus]

This is a bit of a straw man discussion because not everything is in the context menu of XSI, and it's also on a weird key (Alt+RMB), and that's not how you would select an edge loop or ring, typically.

I have a plain RMB in component mode for years, really don't remember how I got it in SI. If I'd be able to get the same in Maya, even not everything on menu, would be great. Such things are so easy to get in Blender, by the way (as keymap editor includes mouse actions, too).

[Mathaeus]

Just for info, got the funny 'circles of buttons' to fit nicely in one column. It seems it was enough to comment out 'radial position .. something' in appropriate MELs (usually MMContext... or PolyConvertMM), to get them in normal order. MEL rules....
Getting the RMB for component context menu won't be so easy, but it seems to be possible - some of these MELs are almost twenty years old, so, a lot of useful info all over internet.
Regrading Maya modeling practice, have to admit, all I know about is an old set of jokes 'how Mayan does this or that' , a bit obsolete, today . If there's anything that worth from it, it will be already implemented in modeling reference software like SI or Max - but it's not, so it is irrelevant.

[luceric]

Regrading Maya modeling practice, have to admit, all I know about is an old set of jokes 'how Mayan does this or that' , a bit obsolete, today . If there's anything that worth from it, it will be already implemented in modeling reference software like SI or Max - but it's not, so it is irrelevant.

It was an often requested feature in XSI, but they are patented and we couldn't add them. The un-patented version, pie menus - or radial menus - is quite widespread, it's in modo, Blender, comes with the Wacom utilities (for example to be used in conjunction with zbrush), it's in tons of games including The Sim/left for dead/GTA, etc. At one point one needs to look beyond 1990s UI paradigm that were created for secretaries using Excel and try new things. Zbrush's new modelling is also trying something new with menu interaction

[Mathaeus]

It was an often requested feature in XSI, but they are patented and we couldn't add them. The un-patented version, pie menus - or radial menus - is quite widespread, it's in modo, Blender, comes with the Wacom utilities (for example to be used in conjunction with zbrush), it's in tons of games including The Sim/left for dead/GTA, etc. At one point one needs to look beyond 1990s UI paradigm that were created for secretaries using Excel and try new things. Zbrush's new modelling is also trying something new with menu interaction

Nevertheless, I've read how Modo 901 even added S key for navigation, as an option. Mouse input > Softimage interaction... Personally I become addict of 'scrolling the value' in Houdini 14. You know, MMB wheel for adjusting the value, ctrl or shift for multiply/divide by 10.
Any chance to get the 'scrolling the value' in Maya, anywhere else than in small toolbar that appear after operator is applied. Or I'm asking something inappropriate, again.

[panupat]

You can sort of scroll value in Maya with MM but not as robust as HOU. Hold down CTRL and the value would move much smaller for fine tuning.

Still trying to get used to XSI to really evaluate it. Also trying out Modo 901 but it had been a crash fest for me for some reason. I value viewport performance quite a lot so Blender is out of the question for now.

I admit there are tons of cool stuff coming out of MAX especially hard surface stuff. But if possible I want to avoid it.

[Mathaeus]

You can sort of scroll value in Maya with MM but not as robust as HOU. Hold down CTRL and the value would move much smaller for fine tuning.

Yeah but it seems I need just a scrolling by mouse wheel - as this give me exactly rounded values. With this, I could just move polygons by let's say 7 units, do something, and return them just in same place later. Another example is well know global COG scale at zero in SI, for flattening out a bunch of points - in SI, I just scroll the one of XYZs to zero. Also, that's the way for zeroing multiple keys in SI AE. And more...

Anyway to stop with nit-picking, all in all, *maybe* I'll find Maya thing a competitor to SI, one day, for more organic things ( because of sculpting tools) - but for hard surface, where I need more exact, always numerically controlled input ( just like in SI) nothing to expect of that mass of tools in Maya, each having the own set controls and rules. Unbelievable by the way, to do not even have an unified PPG, at least looking from my SI - Max perspective.

[NNois]

you can't scroll on maya parameters you have to move the mouse and click the viewport ?

[Mathaeus]

you can't scroll on maya parameters you have to move the mouse and click the viewport ?

there is no unified Maya parameter interface, that's the story. So, if you apply Bevel operator, a sort of small mini ppg jumps in ( if I'm correct, this is addition in 2016) - here it is possible to scroll on parameter. But, if you want to change the bevel parameter in attribute editor, no scroll anymore. In channel box ( that's for animation), there's new set of rules, LMB on parameter, MMB for adjust, but no scroll too. Something like that....

Within next few hours, I believe we will hear the explanation, how it's better to use the different methods for different tasks. I'd say, maybe in case of teamwork, one user to apply the bevel, another to correct the bevel. For one man band, nothing else than nightmare. Old story - Maya simply is not 3d for generalists - unless you spend a few months with MELs.

[luceric]

there is no unified Maya parameter interface, that's the story. So, if you apply Bevel operator, a sort of small mini ppg jumps in ( if I'm correct, this is addition in 2016) - here it is possible to scroll on parameter. But, if you want to change the bevel parameter in attribute editor, no scroll anymore. In channel box ( that's for animation), there's new set of rules, LMB on parameter, MMB for adjust, but no scroll too. Something like that....

Within next few hours, I believe we will hear the explanation, how it's better to use the different methods for different tasks. I'd say, maybe in case of teamwork, one user to apply the bevel, another to correct the bevel. For one man band, nothing else than nightmare. Old story - Maya simply is not 3d for generalists - unless you spend a few months with MELs.

It's always MMB in the viewport to scrub values in Maya with a gesture. When it's a transform tool active, it'll scrub the closest transform axis. When it's a parameter selected, either in the channelbox or on manipulator on-screen parameter, it'll scrub that.

In Maya (and tons of other apps other than XSI) when you perform an operation like bevel you get an on screen manipulator and parameters for it appear in the viewport directly, and you scroll them with the middle mouse button. Or you can select them in the channelbox and scroll with the middle mouse button. You never go in the Attribute editor during modeling.

In Softimage, it's a old 1990 design and there is no manipulator: you perform an operation, and XSI will kick you out of context by throwing a property page in your face with a bunch of sliders. Even the designers of XSI don't think that a good interaction and it wouldn't have remained that way had we had more resources. There is nobody that doesn't understand the value of on-screen parameters, and XSI had started to add it with the DisplayInfo/HUD, whatever it's called.

The way to scroll parameter values in Houdini is nice, although I think there are almost no sliders in Houdini, from what I recall. There are tons of sliders in XSI and Maya's AE and that's what people use the most. Manipulator and channel box, and anything with visible sliders, is definitely for generalists.

[NNois]

You never go in the Attribute editor during modeling

As this is actually your competences, you should had known than you can't tunnel you users workflow, they will always find you reasons why they need the contrary. And actually a UX team should focus on how things could blend together... harder but 10 times better for sure.

about the subject:

Each software has their way of doing things for sure but still, i use everyday a minimum of 3 or 4 software, and XSI has some major UX concept that can be forgotten like that.

EVERY input box should behave unified
- Make Scroll wheel scroll under cursor (without activating, like the so cool windows tool X-Mouse Button Control)
- numbers -> increments
- text -> move cursor
- ticks -> scroll between each others
etc... it's a time saver and a click saver, just look at how photoshop behave when you choose the blending modes it's crazy complicated)
- Math should be possible in every numeric text box (this isn't true in xsi for somes)
- Gesture clock value
- Mixing ctrl alt shift to grade differently values, actually you just have 2 grades there is three in XSI and it's a timesaver too
- modification of multiple input boxes, xsi do that so easily

this was actually just for a tiny input box... and i must have forgotten some.

PLEASE keep in mind that at the end of the day having clicks limited etc is actually good for the a less stress free job
the middle mouse button to repeat action ;-)

PS:found the other day a color picker in houdini by just alt clicking+draw, this is a great example about how things should stay simple. Just like the middle mouse button repeat tool in xsi