I can not adapt to other software

[vilsonlirio]

I've tried Modo, Cinema 4D and now I'm using Maya.
The first program I learned was the Maya, I am now trying to get back
but unfortunately it seems more complicated than it at softimage.

The production time seems to triple in relation to softimage.
Someone is having this difficulty?

[Mathaeus]

I've tried Modo, Cinema 4D and now I'm using Maya.
The first program I learned was the Maya, I am now trying to get back
but unfortunately it seems more complicated than it at softimage.

The production time seems to triple in relation to softimage.
Someone is having this difficulty?

No you're first with that impression
Now seriously, definitively that 2x or 3x seems to be a rule, starting from different transform - shape node. Not only equivalents to SI are 'doubled', let's say SI freeze transform, SI hard edge, 'un-parented' deformer setups starting from plain Cluster deform. Fbik setup wants two skeletons while Max's biped uses (visually) just one, nurbs workflow asks for around 2-3 more steps than Rhino or MoI, so on and so on. Node editor and constant need to hide or reveal something, or hunting for nodes automatically inserted 10k pixels away, that's specail story.
On positive side, perhaps there is no 3d app on planet with so easy (simple) script setup. Here I mean a plain Runtime command editor that comes with hotkeys setup, practically allowing me to create command sequences on the fly. Been able to create something close to SI style of component selection, sometimes a few small advantages more, like 'reset' back to select tool when using another sequence which emulates SI ray cast poly select, and such.
One another that helped is a sort of discipline in 'reducing' the app, to do *not* use shelves or in-view editors whenever possible - this made a cleaner interface and generally faster work.
At the end of the day I think it's all about psychological approach, in years of Softimage somehow I had respect to SI and SI solutions, while in Maya, approach that works, for me, it's to take it as boxing wrecking ball, first trying to avoid, override or kill the default workflow. While yeah, I just can't imagine how to use Maya without all these interventions.

[xsi_fanatic]

I've tried Modo, Cinema 4D and now I'm using Maya.
The first program I learned was the Maya, I am now trying to get back
but unfortunately it seems more complicated than it at softimage.

The production time seems to triple in relation to softimage.
Someone is having this difficulty?

You're definitely not alone. I was losing my mind with Maya (7 yrs experience) and decided to go back to Softimage. I don't care if it is a dead software. Even in its death, it has more life than Maya, Max, and Modo combined.

C4D has potential, but they need to step up their game. I'm talking about very basic functions that really slow you down just because they're not well implemented.

I'm sticking to Softimage.

[myara]

I use Maya regularly and IMO, to get it to work as smoothly as SI requires some customization. Shortcuts, scripts, plugins, preferences.

You'll also need to adapt to some Maya workflow like shelves, hotbox, marking menus and your own custom marking menus. Get used to the unfriendly Attribute spreadsheet, Hypernode, Outliner and Node Editor.

Maya doesn't have a reliable export import weights tool so you'll need to look for some script out there. Weights break easily so get used to workaround with copy weights a lot. Delete Non Deformer History isn't as good as Freeze Modeling and it may break your weights, be prepared. Something that works for me is to duplicate, copy weights to duplicated, copy weights back and delete the duplicated. I scripted this so it is just one click.

Get used to some inconsistency in the workflow too. Changing to vertex selection with Right click menu isn't the same as do it with F9.

Change your hot key layout because the layout is really dumb, probably worst than Softimage 3D. Well, XSI wasn't perfect either. And by the way don't forget to delete that CTRL+Q hotkey, it will make you quit Maya without asking, really stupid hotkey.

Basic scripting also help a lot here, at least being able to reproduce some shortcuts that you may want, like a M key tweak tool. If you don't script be prepared to search and try tons of tools, they can really improve your workflow. I do suggest to learn some very basic Mel scripting. Mel is enough, but learn Python if you want something more advanced.

Maya's Modeling Toolkit has improved a lot so try not to use anything older than 2016.

Even then, I still work faster with Softimage and I use it when possible. It will be impossible to match Vanilla Softimage's speed with Maya without a lot of script customization (or even with a lot of customization).
Using Softimage and converting it to Maya is usually faster. BtW if you want to do this workflow I recommend to rename your UVs to map1 in Softimage, Maya kinda freaks out if the default UVs name are something different than map1 and will give you some headaches to rename them inside Maya.

[Mathaeus]

Get used to some inconsistency in the workflow too. Changing to vertex selection with Right click menu isn't the same as do it with F9.

Yes, these inconsistencies are special part While I'm not sure is this intentional, to give 'more options' to users
For example when trying to parent a Cluster deformer handle to something, it creates transform group to compensate a world bind pose (instead of adjusting the bind pose, imho), but only when parenting in viewport. If outliner is used for parenting, it just does nothing, leaving the wrong bind pose. And... list expands further...

[wesserbro]

Lets not forget maya has this god-like-app aura not because of being actually brilliant, but because at one point it got mel and became popular because of that. Anytime maya freaks me out ("holy hell, why this piece of c... is an industry standard!!") i just remember that to calm down
But it still feels like eating fork-meal with a spoon: you can be as proficient, but very frustrated

[julius]

Sticking with SI as often as possible too... Maya is a pure waste of time.

[Mathaeus]

you can be as proficient, but very frustrated

In relation to Softimage, (my very personal) answer to ''frustrated'' I think is somewhere around yes and no. While mentioned 2x more is definitively present, no more fighting for exotic app ( here I think I was a small veteran), finally is over. That is, Max and Maya *are* industry standards.

Now about Blender.... in previous post I've talking about behavior Maya cluster deformer, intentionally - while ago when I've tried Blender Hook op (eqivalent of mentioned one), noticed strange inconsistency (at least for Softimage criteria), and, because didn't even launched Maya for around ten years, didn't know where authors "got" the idea. Now I do know, this was just a 1:1 copy of Maya, together with inconsistency. Same goes to Blender smoke fluids, good number of another features too. So at the end of the day, 'freedom' in this case, seems to be just a weak copy of ''no freedom'', nothing more.

[Bellsey]

Sooner or later anyone sticking on Softimage will have to move on. There comes a point, when you just have to let it go.

As someone whose been in both worlds of Maya and Softimage (nee XSI) since they first came into this world. Both have some very good points, but also equally bad.

It's all too easy to dismiss Maya after having been in Soft for so long but to say its simply rubbish and no good, is somewhat narrow minded, imho. It's just different, just as Max, Modo, C4D, Houdini, and Blender is. You simply can't compare one type of workflow and translate it like for like to another package and expect it to be the same, things just don't work like that. Maya is actually a very good software package, with many merits. The idea of it being unusable without scripts is a bit of a red herring really, because it's not true. However with workflows becoming more advanced to handle the work, scripts and tools have essentially become the norm. If you took any 3D software (yes even Softimage) as vanilla and tried to do your work without any tools whatsoever, eventually you'd hit some barriers.

If you're coming from a different software, key to understanding (and even liking Maya ), is understanding how its data flow works, because it will be different to Soft. Once you understand that, it helps understand how and why tools and features work like they do.

But I guess, some people might not ever get it, although I do wonder if many have that view simply because it's Autodesk. Personally I've never got that.

[Mathaeus]

If I'll be a voluntary Maya supporter, I won't be using words like "you should understand it'', or ''it is easy when you get it" and such. These phrases are already abused together with Mental Ray, perhaps it's good idea to avoid them for let's say ten next years.

Understanding the Maya data flow, this is by all means harder than creating a few little scripts - so.... no way to work with this software, without a basic scripting knowledge, or, without TD in room. Or, ok there is, somewhere on level of imaginary, bugged Silo when it comes to modeling. To be fair, it's possible to animate, and that's all.

Software like 3ds Studio Max or Softimage are able to work very well without additional scripting or TD behind, Maya is not. Simply as that. There were developers who made a contract with devil (that is, programmers, TDs) long time ago, and it is only that devil who is able to change, anything - or just to leave this app in dust, once they will find something else to play.

[Rork]

Switching to some other 3D app will always be frustrating, when if it's Maya, Houdini or others doesn't matter.
Maya, especially 2016 and up do have improved a lot, and in some areas are very close to SI.

Shading, UV, lighting and rendering don't take much time to adjust to imho.
Modeling took some time to adjust, as I still feel all of the tools are cluttered across several Mesh menu's, or kind of hidden via Ctrl/Shift/Alt options while working. It doesn't help that some tools only show up in combination with these key combinations.
Also, due to name conventions, I still get confused sometimes when trying to do certain modeling tasks ;)
Basic animation is the same, I don't touch anything else atm....

Like Bellsey says, you need to understand the workflow of the application. After that it quickly starts to make sense.
Especially with applications like Houdini this is important LOL!

Also, some scripts, shelves and tools will help to make the transition a bit better, like other people here suggested.

But..... Maya does need a lot more clicks and work to get stuff done imho. Or can be utter frustrating because Maya.
It's not a program like SI, that is/was great to crank out work quickly with a small group of artists.
Maya also tends to need a slightly bigger group to get through a project, or just needs more time.

my € 0.02

rob

[Mathaeus]

Well regarding Houdini, I think main problem when it comes to accepting by small shops, individuals, it is price of big one, and licence of Indie. That is, if I'll be able to use in daily work I think I'll find a way how to that. Slowly but surely, people will start to cooperate, creating solutions. In long run, through several versions, we'll see some results. For now everything about me and Houdini is somehow theoretical....

Back to some aspects of Maya like basic rigging, this article was significant. For those who don't want to read entire story, just a sentence: 'We’ve seen it cause endless frustration for artists. Especially people new to Maya, who are familiar with 3dsMax and XSI bone based systems.' Honestly to say, I can't confirm statements from article, because it was a motivation to start building own solutions, for now in Node Editor, avoiding Maya IK, constraints and such stuff as much as possible, and from that point, things went in really good direction. So it was a happy day when I stopped with idiotic 'love and understanding' in favor of 'fighting against the beast'.
Anyway I'd believe the basic kinematic tools are still usable, while.... I don't know anyone who use them, it's a world of plugins or in-house tools.

Now, when it comes to deformers.....

As we all know, Maya has no operator (modifier) stack. I mean, one place to create, apply, inspect, edit, re-order, disable or delete operator. In various ways, in Houdini, SI, Max, Blender, this is present, but not in Maya. Re-order is present to some extent, but in practice, each combination has own rules. Even worse, some ops have own first-next sub-procedures, like 'use components' (nice idea btw) of Skin Cluster, and I was able to get thing to work only by re - loading Maya, once everything is set. So... for my taste, for anything more than plain one SkinCluster on your mesh, it's simply dangerous to live without serious set of scripts for setup ( and every possible combination of setup).

When it comes to interface, while is really nicely designed, still it's bad old screen eater, having around four different ways of interaction. Attribute editor, new caddies, color editor, channel box, each behave different, no one is satisfactory. Few nice options, like activating a column of input fields at once, but generally, crap, imho.

When it comes to modeling, generally is usable for me (after around 30 custom small scripts) but 2017 is buggy.... I'm writing this after seven or eight crashes of Maya LT this evening.... (yes it crashes without these scripts, with clean prefs too, just to make clear)

Regarding 'big' Maya, from what I had chance to try - Bifrost, nCloth and nParticles are impressive, but controls over particles , this is same as it was decade ago when I've learning Maya. From article, written four-five years ago: 'I must say its disheartening to see how little the workflow has changed for particles in maya in 10 (ten! TEN!!!) years. Hopefully Bifrost will fix all this in future releases' - author is Houdini user today, what else...

Long story short, somewhere in bounds of Maya LT, for those who don't hesitate to dive a little bit into vector math and MEL, it is a really interesting software with really nicely designed interface. When it comes to reality, this summer when people from certain facility asked me do I know something about Maya, because they have one Maya licence, against around ten Maxes, I immediately said 'no', and I'll say same today. As I'm already familiar with Max, don't like it that much, but can live with that known, more or less consistent devil.

[Bullit]

Well regarding Houdini, I think main problem when it comes to accepting by small shops, individuals, it is price of big one, and licence of Indie.

I think it is much more the investment that is needed to think Houdini way than license costs besides Houdini has no advantage and sometimes disadvantage in dealing with simple stuff there is also lack of workers. All of this are much bigger issues than the monetary investment in licenses.

[Shredder565]

i messed around with maya 2014.

I couldn't even figure out how to move verticies. i just say there looking at a sphere in what is supposed to be the most 'powerful' and 'best ' program ever and i couldn't figure out how to even get started in modelling.


At least with Max i got far enough in 1999 to learn some of the basics of modelling. although it wasn't very intuitive.

that's why i like softimage. very easy to figure out.

I just don't see why, if they bought it to kill it, autodesk doesn't keep it in circulation. it really is hurting alot of people.

[NNois]

Well regarding Houdini, I think main problem when it comes to accepting by small shops, individuals, it is price of big one, and licence of Indie.

I think it is much more the investment that is needed to think Houdini way than license costs besides Houdini has no advantage and sometimes disadvantage in dealing with simple stuff there is also lack of workers. All of this are much bigger issues than the monetary investment in licenses.

hi bullit,
Please be more precise, simple stuff are complex in Houdini ? Can you elaborate because I can't find a simple example to that ;-)

[Mathaeus]

i messed around with maya 2014.
I couldn't even figure out how to move verticies. i just say there looking at a sphere in what is supposed to be the most 'powerful' and 'best ' program ever and i couldn't figure out how to even get started in modelling.


At least with Max i got far enough in 1999 to learn some of the basics of modelling. although it wasn't very intuitive.

I think it's good idea to try some of latest versions, 2016 and up. By the way, equivalent of SI move point tool, I mean the old one before times of XSI 5, it's holding the tilde key, once move tool is active. This hold some key, shift+RMB, MMB or shift+ctrl+MMB+RMB+LMB+hold+release is somehow typical to Maya. Why is that, from what I heard there are historical reasons, when Idikiukup and Bob become Alias employees, while ago. Idikiukup become a chief of ergonomics department, Bob integrated self into Maya core.
If you want a permanent switch (so not to hold this or that), MEL code is something like this:

Code: Select all

manipMoveContext -e -ah 3 Move;
strsTweakMode(1);

First line is to reset the active handle back to all 3 axis (-ah 3), otherwise Maya can stuck in moving along one axis, inheriting how you used manipulator before. Second line is permanent toggle. However, for creating an equivalent of SI tools, I think this involves a few more switches, like entering the point component mode, back face selection switch, ray cast switch (drag - marquee in Maya), preventing the last used tool to do not push Maya running wildly around your room, so on.

Of course, someone can choose Max and just a plain and simple 'Select and move'. Blender's Grab tool as well.