Muscle compound tutorial?

[Benzin]

Is anyone willing and able to make some tutorial about this topic? General guidelines? Principles? Approaches?

I'm a Max user, but ICE noob, and I'm trying to apply some techniques regarding muscles creation that I know trough ICE, but I'm getting weird results...one of them is that a position of an object (x,y,z global space) (null) at which the ICE tree is "sitting", influences the position of another objects in the tree? Is this normal? Does this object upon which the ICE tree is build should transfer such kind of data down the line?

Basically the idea is this, (nothing fancy and new):

1. Linear Line (curve) with two clusters at each end.
2. Couple of Circles (Curves), sitting on the curve.
3. Distance between clusters drives radius of circles.
4. Circles constrained between clusters/curve.
5. Create particle at each point of all circles.
6. Create polygons or surfaces between them.
7. Spring formula applied to particles.
8. Simulate jiggle.

Maybe it's a VERY simplistic approach but it should work ...

Few more question, are these 8 "steps" one big ICE tree? One compound? Or Each of these steps demands it's own tree? Or there is no rule? How many ICE trees can be in one scene, before it chokes Softimage?

Noob... I warned you...

[Bullit]

There are several muscle or jiggle(a bit different but might help to learn) stuff already developed, maybe a search here and in google will have something for you.

[Werner]

Have a look at this video on vimeo. There is a link at the bottom of the vid.

https://vimeo.com/72169490

[Benzin]

Yes, I know about Softimage vimeo channel, been there, this video is pretty useless, except for a few short glimpses on ICE tree in it... and yes I did download "Loft" compound... it's only a small part of the whole thing... as far for now there are three options, first one is Vorlex plugin, second, Angel_07's group of compounds without comments or groups (if I could read ICE tree backwards like that I wouldn't be here, writing this), and this cute little video... is that all?

[Dwindleflip]

Use Maya.

Anyone thats doing anything like this is keeping it private.

[Benzin]

It looks like that will be the course of action... but then what's the point of this and other forums? Sooner or later a muscle compound will be standard part of ICE, same as those in Maya... is this a race who will make one and sell it to Autodesk? Should we organize a kickstarter campaign? Ah, well... the human nature in its true light... generally there seems to be some kind of a limit of what kind of information you can get in forums... basic, basic, basic, stuff... I'm sick and tired of particles spilled on the floor, or blown by wind...You want some "Real Stuff"? Prepare your wallet!

[Hirazi Blue]

Wow, that's a pretty harsh judgment after 4 posts. The fact that the specific thing you're looking for isn't readily available and not something the current posters can easily provide doesn't justify those kind of remarks about forums in general and the Softimage community and this forum in particular IMHO.

[Dwindleflip]

The sad truth is softimage is a very small community now and its shrinking more everyday as features arent implemented in the program. Its not really the fault of the community in my eyes. In fact i think the community has really stepped up in the complete absence of autodesk support.

Muscle stuff is hard, and so not everyone is doing it in softimage or knows how to. Most serious character work is done in maya and those who are doing it in softimage are a minority within a very small group of users.

[Benzin]

@ Hirazi Blue

"You will always recognize the truth... because it's unpleasant" - old Chinese proverb...

@ Dwindleflip

Why are people so stubborn? Maya has a good solution for muscles.... but it's sooooooo sloooooooooow. It should "fly" in SI. Why is it shrinking (community)? Shouldn't be growing? Shrinking in favor of what?

By the way I'm at step 4

Capture.JPG

I hope you can see it, because my monitors are only 20", and the snipping tool isn't so precise.

Is this harsh enough Hirazi Blue? Isn't this what these all forums should be about? A place for exchange of knowledge, R&D, problem solving? Real stuff? Not a place for self promotion... and commercials of big software companies... what most of these forums had become lately... ask something little harder than "how to make a sphere" and you won't get an answer... you will get price list...
414 views... only 8 replies altogether... where are now all those "masters" and "tutorial creators"... chicken?

[Hirazi Blue]

Wow, with that attitude you will surely make a lot of friends in this community!

[Pooby]

I agree.

Being rude and dismissive to people does not encourage them or others to spend time helping. I probably would have, were it not for the attitiude displayed here.

[Mathaeus]

Maya has a good solution for muscles.... but it's sooooooo sloooooooooow. It should "fly" in SI.

Well I think you'll be able to know how your system is fast, only at the end of day, when you'll have the entire system finished.
How to build a single muscle, I'm pretty sure there are available examples around - at least there is one or two systems for Blender, I think I remember a few ICE compounds too ( but really don't know where). it was a free example for XSI 4 or so (but hardly this one will work today).
BUT... as I said, entire system... how to optimize all that together, this belongs to practice, experience. Standard ICE trickery, like 'don't use repeat node', that's well known, there are a lot of posts.
Anyway, If I were you, I'll go from top to down. First a sort of testbed, let's say, 30-50 of muscles, sliding skin on top, test and test and test.... after that, I'll try to optimize the individual muscle.

About Maya muscle, author is master, I remember his very complex work on rigging. long time before this muscle thing - so, won't be easy to compete against him, despite the 3d app and method. Unless he intentionally sacrificed the speed in favor of something else.

About your previous comment, sharing, shrinking, whatever... SI community always be small, but willing to share - if it is possible to share. It's individual decision, would someone share the tool, or not. For small example, I know for few implementations of free tools I've made, but.. I never ever asked people about these implementations, at least, nothing more than they already said. Imho it's just pointless to go into private decisions.

By the way, once your tool is in public, there is additional work to do - docs, some kind of support ( even free tool is not supported, you won't leave it alone). And that work itself
could take more than creation of tool - so yet another reason to do not share, completely beside stereotypes or 'conspiracy'.

Best luck for your system, I'll looking for it, one day you'll decide to share it.

[Benzin]

I'm not being rude... maybe a little bit sharp... thanks for support... and spitting... my way of R&D is to turn the internet inside-out in search for useful data - any topic involved. Last option are forums... Why? During the years I had noticed a real decline (or better to say drop like a rock) of useful information in forums generally...
You are small community? Do you want to be large community? SHARE KNOWLEDGE! Make tutorials, give away tips&tricks... be forthcoming... show some real stuff...
I know a lot's of people who dream about learning ICE and Softimage or Houdini, BUT THERE IS NO (not even a 10% of the amount of tutorials for Max or Maya) literature, tutorials, everything is "intro" "beginnings" "fast forward" "no sound" and similar c**p of whom nobody has any benefit.
God forbid I had to do this muscle without any prior knowledge of rigging... what would be my options so far? Take a look at useless video, and switch to Maya... because it's "private stuff"? Is that a way to make your community bigger?

[Pooby]

Do you mean something like this?

http://vimeopro.com/pooby/ice/page/1

[Pancho]

I've started on simple muscles some time ago. Currently on a job, but I'll try to show what I've got so far a.s.a.p. So far my muscles work in a linear fashion. Two points, inbetween the muscle with the correct orientation and scaling. For legs muscles not that bad.

I just wonder how one would treat muscles in the shoulder region for example, the wrapping around the body of the latissimus dorsi or the deltoids. These muscles are curved. So I guess some kind of skeleton is need in order to tell the muscle how its curvy shape needs to work. So this is probably more a simulation. So I guess a curve with get closest location on geometry could work too.

[Benzin]

@ Pooby

http://vimeopro.com/pooby/ice/video/43901251

http://vimeopro.com/pooby/ice/video/43913057

http://vimeopro.com/pooby/ice/video/47861620

Nice... another typical example of a useless "tutorial"... now why don't you show us how did you built those compounds, instead of twiddling around with that skeleton and spending about 45 seconds of a 15 minutes video in ICE tree... IF you want to show us? Otherwise, you may delete them (videos), because their educational value is equal to zero... nobody would miss them... but as a self-promotion tool... they are priceless.

But, never mind, on my front the first real problem appears, the "mechanical" parts are mostly done, by mostly I mean I just need to copy two more nulls and two more circles... now the question is how to create surface between the particles (after the famous spring formula) which I intent to create at position of circles points? Are NURBS surfaces supported in ICE? Polygonizer? Some other method?