Will the MAYA node editor ever become an ICE clone?

[TheDutchOracle]

hi i have a question,

I'm by no means a maya user.
but i ws just curious.
I've read that the ''improved' maya 2014 node editor is a hybrid between the hypershade and the hypergraph.
(i've never used it) But how does it compare against ICE? is it only a texture and materials thing? visually it looks somewhat similar. (like most node based systems)
will it ever become something similar to ICE anytime soon? Is the implementation of ICE in softimage better that what maya is doing with the improved node editor? (like acces to data)

[Lord Futzi Voldemort]

hi i have a question,

I'm by no means a maya user.
but i ws just curious.
I've read that the ''improved' maya 2014 node editor is a hybrid between the hypershade and the hypergraph.
(i've never used it) But how does it compare against ICE? is it only a texture and materials thing? visually it looks somewhat similar. (like most node based systems)
will it ever become something similar to ICE anytime soon? Is the implementation of ICE in softimage better that what maya is doing with the improved node editor? (like acces to data)

You can't compare it with ICE. The may node editor is somewhat like a unified node editor, since maya in it's core is node based. So it can help to analyse data structures and make links or disconnect/connect nodes including the material nodes. Also it can be very much cluttered and confusing, because the internal node structure of a maya scene is by no means unidirectional and has a lot of parameters interconnected. Building a complex scene with nodes in maya is something for specialists. The ICE tree is an interface for the node based architecture that sits on top of SI's Stack based architecture and influences dedicated parts of the software, not the core itself. It is specific to ICE.

Anyone please correct me where I'm wrong.

[TheDutchOracle]

So if i'm correct, it's more cluttered and therefore more complex to 'read' and create?
But it does have access to a lot inside maya? That actually sounds ok.

Houdini is also all node based, maybe same complexity? i liked working with houdini a lot.

[Mathaeus]

So if i'm correct, it's more cluttered and therefore more complex to 'read' and create?
But it does have access to a lot inside maya? That actually sounds ok.

Houdini is also all node based, maybe same complexity? i liked working with houdini a lot.

Not comparable. really. You can do a simple test, create cube, apply bend and twist deformer, try to re-order these two deformers in hypergraph - you'll have ten or more connection to deal with.
For more, you can read this - a bit outdated when it comes to Mantra rendering, but rest is interesting, imho.
From article :"whenever you have to dive into the construction history of maya, its with a grimace and the script editor close by. Nothing is easy, lots of stuff requires scripts to be wired together properly, its effort. Houdini actively encourages you to dive in, try adding another node, disable that node, see what happens, add a note saying 'this could be made better...'. It encourages a playground environment for node operations that maya lacks. "

[rray]

I've read that the ''improved' maya 2014 node editor is a hybrid between the hypershade and the hypergraph.

The devs coming up with a good solution for the bifrost/normal/shading node editing is my (purely personal) litmus test for whether there's any kind of hope for Maya.

[talent103]

"Will the MAYA node editor ever become an ICE clone?"

the answer is NO.

[TheDutchOracle]

Thanks for that description Mathaeus.
That makes sense to me (not having using mayas node editor).
I didn't know it was so cumbersome (that many connections for such simple things).

[Pooby]

I feel the closest you will get to anything resembling ICE in Maya (within the near future) will be Fabric Engine's Splice when they introduce Visual Programming next year.

Whether Bifrost evolves into a tool maker at some point, remains speculation. At the first iteration its pretty much fluids /particles afaik

[Hirazi Blue]

While I also seriously doubt, Bifrost will turn into an ICE-like environment in the near future, we as a Softimage crowd do seem to be eager to forget, that ICE had it's very humble beginnings as well. In its original incarnation it was particles and deformations only, IIRC.
;)

[Mathaeus]

Thanks for that description Mathaeus.
That makes sense to me (not having using mayas node editor).
I didn't know it was so cumbersome (that many connections for such simple things).

To be fair, I forget to mention the Bifrost (but others hopefully mentioned it). Bifrost offers an ICE-ish way of interaction, inputs for another nodes everywhere, 'set data' structure, which makes it friendly for much more people, than Houdini's "#$%Skynet".."T-600"$||@#" stuff everywhere - but Bifrost type interaction is limited to what it's doing. Imho it's not only about count of connections, main problem with Maya, all the time, it is an unbelievable inconsistent construction history, stack, call it whatever you want, together with tons of irrelevant data that Maya tends to display (at least for everyday work) Without hypergraph, mentioned re - order is possible only in dedicated window for re-ordering. Ordinary operation in SI, Max, C4d, Blender, even Houdini, in Maya " its with a grimace and the script editor close by". I sow this more than once, how Maya user, who is not coder, don't use and don't even know how to use, what it is two clicks, usuall operation in Max or SI. Maya has no construstion history, neither operator stack, simple as that.

Regarding the complex structure of this app, heavy influence of existing coder's habits, and of course priorities of corporation, it's really hard to believe we will see anything really ICE-like in this app. Except, imho, "bullshit of decade", how Bifrost is easier than ICE - anyway exactly this "easier" pushed me to Houdini into minute, so no bad at all, at the end.

[luceric]

Not comparable. really. You can do a simple test, create cube, apply bend and twist deformer, try to re-order these two deformers in hypergraph - you'll have ten or more connection to deal with."

You would never do this in Maya. you'd simply open the operator window (RMB->Inputs->All Inputs) and drag and drop the deformer in another order. And you can't view XSI's deformers in the ICE tree.

You're looking a the low level implementation of the Maya graph, which you can't see at all in XSI. In XSI, deformers have tons of connections as well you wouldn't be able to correctly reorder by hand, so we hide it and instead you reorder in the Explorer and we handle all the "poutine" behind the scene, like Maya's operator window. Yes, it's better in XSI with its Explorer; maya doesn't have that in its Outliner at this time.

And all of this has nothing to with ICE, because ICE is not the XSI architecture and you cannot use the ICE graph to reorder deformers or edit the modeling construction history. The only thing you can do in the ICE tree is edit ICE things. And the only thing you can edit in the render tree, is the shader tree. There is no unified graph architecture in XSI. It's ONE graph in Maya, but that's a mixed blessing because nothing is hidden if you go an look for it, and most things things aren't meant to be authoring directly in the graph except for the obvious candidates like shading trees and rigging.

[Mathaeus]

I talked about overall usability, what could be done with such system, in what time, by which level of knowledge, regarding the other tools and structure of app, too. In this context, yes, every 3d app on the planet, used by individual, except maybe Modo, would be able to utilize the system like ICE, a way better than Maya. I did not talked about particular architecture and such. Yes I know there should be tons of connections, but imho they should live under the hood. Many of them are living under the hood in Houdini, too.
I learned to re order the modifiers directly in stack, in 3d studio max, 1996, before Maya even existed. Have no idea why I should go back to separate window , in 2014. Because I didn't touch Maya for about eleven years, naively I've believed, these basic things are fixed. But they are not, making this Maya thing plainly inferior to Max (let's keep the comparison in AD area), for use by one man band - and anything else added to this thing will became inferior.

[Pooby]

The only thing you can do in the ICE tree is edit ICE things

Yes, such as deformer 'stacks', Deformers themselves, Rigs, Mocap retargetting, 2d Optical flow and tracking, Cloth, Dynamics, fluids, etc etc.
I use ICE so predominatly, its become its almost become its own DCC, with 'legacy Softimage' attached for modelling.
Keeping practically everything within ICE means you have far more control how everything is evaluated.