VFX demonstration at the Oscars

[SamHowell]

Well after what seems like endless talk on VFX solider and other movie vfx blogs someone finally did it.

Good for them
http://www.fxguide.com/quicktakes/visua ... tatoscars/
http://www.deadline.com/2013/02/vfx-osc ... heir-case/

[Hirazi Blue]

Pardon my ignorance (and yes it's ignorance, I'm not deliberately trying to "fan the flames"):
This dire situation, is this primarily an American problem (concerning the subsidies other countries offer to the VFX industry) or is it bigger than that? And will this affect the industry as a whole or is it strictly the movie based studios that are affected?

[SamHowell]

It certainly being pushed by American artists but I think it's a situation that has consqeuences for everyone working on movie VFX. The impression I get is that subsidies are perceived by some to be part of the problem as they distort the market value of VFX services. I don't really know enough about them to have fully formed opinion but some have said they result in incentives for companies that are not in the best interests of artists.

The big issue though seems to be a lack of respect and ignorance by the movie industry as a whole. This has lead to a devaluation of what VFX artists are percieved to do and has resulted in erratic and poor work conditions along with ever shrinking budgets. This has been rumbling along for a while now but it seems that the situation with Digital Domain and Rythm and Hues going almost bankrupt despite producing some of the best movie VFX there is has pushed people over the edge.

The situation hasn't been helped either by the acceptance speech of Rythm and Hues for the VFX in Life of Pi appearing to be censored at the Oscars. Maybe it's just coincidence but it seems to have got a lot of people quite upset.

[Hirazi Blue]

Yes, but while the infamous Life of Pi/Jaws incident has been generally regarded as a deliberate snub/as censorship, it could easily have been read as the Academy being extremely "uptight" about their timetable. I mean there was the lesser well publicized Paperman incident as well:
Kristina Reed, 'Paperman' Producer, Kicked Out Of Oscars For Throwing Paper Planes, which in itself has nothing to do with the Life of Pi incident, but does IMHO show how "uptight" these kinds of shows tend to get.
;)

[SamHowell]

Yeah that Paperman thing was a bit over the top aswell. I guess the Hollywood industry is all about selling an image and everything needs to be tightly managed for the cameras.

The protests seems to be getting increasing coverage...

[Rez007]

This is a pretty big thing going on, and possibly a turning point for how the industry works as whole. Sam stated fairly well what is happening and there is a lot more talk about the situation at hand if you are interested in more information.

http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/
https://twitter.com/VFXSoldier
http://www.cgtalk.com (Multiple threads in the General Discussion Area)

Some countries are paying out big money just to have the work done in those locations, and from what I have been reading, it seems like a violation in the WTO agreement. Since other countries are paying out up to even 40-50%, I read in a post, that allows a company to then slash there operating budget by that much for a film, and even more if they are working in a country that is not as well established and has a lower cost of living. Those studios will move there in order to compete for the job at hand, leaving a lot of people jobless and undervaluing what the work actually costs. It makes it much more difficult then for a studio in the US, England, or any other county that does not go by these practices to survive. Now, the flip side to this practice, is that when those countries ever stop paying out subsidies, those markets will more than likely dry up very quickly and move on to the next...kind of like the "race to the bottom" in terms of pricing that the mobile sector is going through right now. I guess time will tell to see if anything changes.

[McNistor]

[...]undervaluing what the work actually costs[...]

I have a problem with this statement because it is in my opinion non-sense.
What work actually costs is dictated by economic mechanisms, the main being "supply&demand", not what "we" or "they" think our work is worth.
If said field is not operating under unlawful or "unfair" practices but under a free-market framework then your work is worth exactly what you're being paid.

I do acknowledge however that in last few (I don't know exactly how many) years VFX budgets are plummeting and artists are not as valued as they used to. But perhaps this is a direct result of the holly law "supply&demand" more than anything else.

[Rez007]

I was nearly stating what "is" and "why" the issue is at hand. If you read what I wrote in full in regards to the WTO, and not take the sentence out of context, you would have seen that it is referring to that being "unfair" practice and therefore does not apply to the economic free-standards of supply/demand.

[McNistor]

A WTO agreement does not necessarily constitutes or abides to the supply&demand "philosophy" or what a free-market is.

Later edit:
If I think about this a bit more, I think your work is worth exactly what you're paid (or willing to pay for) since you've agreed to it. It's irrelevant why you agreed to it (free-market, unfair practices, etc.) as long as you're not coerced into agreeing to anything.

[Bullit]

In this case it will do McNistor. But then Rez007 might not like the results...

With 1.5 billion of subsidies for Hollywood US is probably more socialist than most countries. No surprises there,US is a country increasingly engulfed under bureaucracy and silly rules. Guess why Michelle Obama appeared at Oscars, in part because of it and political protection.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... on_LEADTop


And it is not by accident that WTO gave recently Antigua the rights to take American property after US disobeyed an WTO ruling.

[Rez007]

A WTO agreement does not necessarily constitutes or abides to the supply&demand "philosophy" or what a free-market is.

Later edit:
If I think about this a bit more, I think your work is worth exactly what you're paid (or willing to pay for) since you've agreed to it. It's irrelevant why you agreed to it (free-market, unfair practices, etc.) as long as you're not coerced into agreeing to anything.

I agree with you here. If someone agrees on an amount to be paid for a certain project than that is what they should be paid. My first post was just giving a breakdown of what all of those threads/links I provided state what is going on. However, whenever a goverment induces money into a system, the whole free-market framework is moot - it is no longer a free-market, and that is one of the main problems of why prices are dropping, is because the free-market is not at work in this case.

In this case it will do McNistor. But then Rez007 might not like the results...

With 1.5 billion of subsidies for Hollywood US is probably more socialist than most countries. No surprises there,US is a country increasingly engulfed under bureaucracy and silly rules. Guess why Michelle Obama appeared at Oscars, in part because of it and political protection.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... on_LEADTop


And it is not by accident that WTO gave recently Antigua the rights to take American property after US disobeyed an WTO ruling.

I didn't say anything about liking or disliking the results. I was just stating what is going on and explaining what the issue was at hand. I have no bias here as it is an issue that affects everyone, if not now, eventually.

My personal opinion, is that I don't like subsidies at all, regardless of what country is doing it, as it undermines the free-market.

[luceric]

It makes it much more difficult then for a studio in the US, England, or any other county that does not go by these practices to survive.

film studios in holywood are receiving milions in tax benefits as well. And what was digital domain doing in Florida if not for the tax breaks there.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/20 ... ise-yours/.
Another interesting read: http://iatse891vfx.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... fx-soldier

[Rez007]

It makes it much more difficult then for a studio in the US, England, or any other county that does not go by these practices to survive.

film studios in holywood are receiving milions in tax benefits as well. And what was digital domain doing in Florida if not for the tax breaks there.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/20 ... ise-yours/.
Another interesting read: http://iatse891vfx.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... fx-soldier

Like I said times before...I was just summarizing what the talk and strike were about. I am not for subsidies where ever they are from as it unbalances the free-market. On a side note, aren't though tax breaks and subsidies a slighty different commodity? In Nevada, there is no Corporate or Personal Income tax, but there are not that many VFX houses there...I don't know why to be honest. Digtial Domain, did seem to strike up a nice deal in their favor, ultimately not working out for their company, which in turn would be unfair for those companies who were unable to have the same opportunity. I think it basically comes down to where the corporations can maximize their bottom-line for their share holders, regardless of where they go. Which sucks for all artists to be honest, myself included- it has been a hard ride and a constant struggle to continue a career I care deeply about. It would be nice though if something would happen that would benefit everyone as a whole. (Note: I said everyone, not just the US)

There was a person on CG Talk who stated it fairly well with one of the core issues (subsidies) to what is happeneing, in an explanation:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread. ... ge=4&pp=15
(Post #49 by Celshader)

[luceric]

AFAIK, cellshader repeats what she read on vfxsoldier, which is a gross over-simplification of how tax subsities work. canadian tax payers do not pay 60% of all vfx artists' weekly salaries, you get tax cuts for hiring local people (see second link above)

[Rez007]

Yea, I didn't know if the number was correct or not, just the process on how it happens I thought was explained well and easier to understand - idk...maybe it is way more indepth like you mention.

Regardless though...

http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_ ... 1302280002

[Bullit]

My personal opinion, is that I don't like subsidies at all, regardless of what country is doing it, as it undermines the free-market.

Apologies then, i was thinking that you were blasting them just because the results weren't good for US.