No 2013 Advantage Pack

[luceric]

What ever happened to customer care and loyalty? Squeezing a bigger profit out of beleaguered customers that are noticing the bigger picture, well this isn't a really great plan now is it , but then it seems Autodesk is not such a great company, its attitude is more 'we're so big we don't give a shit about you'. Right now , to me, mayybe because the grass is always sweeter on the other side of the fence, the only company with management that does appear to care about its customers is Houdini. It seems the guys still in charge ARE the developers as well. Softimage (way back in the day) used to be managed by 3D Artists. That was one of the reasons I chose it over Alias/wavefront (as well as being put off by the ugly box buttons ugh!) Softimage was passionate about making art and animation, Autodesk is passionate about making a profit.

If only the Houdini interface wasnt so convulated and damn difficult to learn its POP/SOP/CHOP/VOP stuff in comparison to what already know how its done in Softimage I would have made the change years ago, the price is no longer an obstacle.

The price could still be an obstacle, because houdini subscription is 2000$ a year. Maybe a few will find this out only about 10 month later go postal about the lack of updates in their area of interests. For example, there has been no update to the animation or modeling tool in years, so if you we paying your subscription expecting that... but few people bought Houdini expecting that; the higher price has ruled out a lot of people who would look to it as a generalist app.

I'm fascinated by this subject. If I started a company, I'd be terrified to make a subscription/maintenance plan, I just wouldn't do it, I couldn't deal with the pressure. It kept Softimage afloat all of these years during the Avid days, though.

[Tekano]

well, here in London my last Softimage maintenance in April was UK£ 930 = 1 454.52 US$ not too far off. I believe US 3DMax subscription users are only paying $500 which doesn't seem right either but thats another story entirely. If, like Softimage, I can only get Houdini through a reseller that adds a further 20% VAT then yes it may add up to more.

granted, not interested in Houdini for the Modelling or animation, I hardly do any these days anyway its the VFX and daily builds where it shines! plus Halfdan is working there now so it can't be that bad

[Bellsey]

I believe (from looking at the website) that Houdini AUP pricing is $995 and then $2495 for Houdini FX. Not sure if that for Node locked or Network. But I think I read somewhere that the first year is free when you buy AUP, which is pretty handy.

As for the Max subs price, you have to remember that Max has options for Basic Support (Silver) and Advanced Support (Gold), whereas Softimage only comes with Advanced Supporr (lets not go there). If you compare the Advanced Support pricing for Max, Maya and Soft, they're all very evenly matched, in UKP or USD.

As for your previous post Tekano, I'm 50/50. I agree with you on some things, but not on others. It's not that Autodesk literally doesn't care, I think it does (well tries to, perhaps not, who knows), and Carl Bass (the CEO) values customer experience very highly. It's just that, particularly with M&E, we seem to fumble and drop the ball in the last few yards, and/or don't fully explain things properly for various reasons. Reasons that are and aren't beyond our control, sometimes.
What frustrates me and others, is that this recent Max episode kinda undos all the good work that Autodesk are doing, and yes I know using the words 'Autodesk' and 'good' together might be hard for some to stomach, but there is some really good stuff being done, which I hope users will eventually get to see.

What's funny though was that I was talking to a Max (Suite) user today, who uses Softimage for all his particle and simulation work. He said he found it ironic that reading the forums that users were bitching about PFlow, (which he questioned just how many people really used it and not another 3rd Party plugin) and that it has been crap for years (his words not mine), when if people took a step back, they might realise that they should be using Soft/ICE which is better anyway and then simply cache their stuff back to Max.
He wasn't bothered about the extension release, but he admitted there is a principle to the thing and his last words kinda summed it up for me - "You guys do have a habit of making these things more complicated than they need to be. Just do the right thing."
I can't argue with that really.

[Maximus]

http://www.autodesk.com/temp/edm/edms/g ... _apac.html

Uhm... i would just stop one moment to analyze this sentence:

"Price changes are coming."

Are we going to see a price increase? lol

Thats somewhat....scary

[Pooby]

If only autodesk spent even half as much effort on app development as they seem to on finding new ways of adjusting prices to exploit the app users.
Have they no dignity? It's almost embarrassing to witness.

[Hirazi Blue]

We had a thread dedicated to the news of an upcoming upgrade policy and subscription price change (Been there, done that) some time ago, but as the good part is really at the end of that thread, where I quote (and praise) Bellsey's Mailing List post, it's probably best to directly read that post in its entirety. Keep in mind Bellsey's speaking from the European/EMEA POV.
Now I can only hope all this still applies... ;)

[Bellsey]

Now I can only hope all this still applies... ;)

To the best of my knowledge, it still does.

@pooby, yep you're right, but you have to look beyond Soft and the Media & Entertinament division and realise that Autodesk is friggin big company. From an operational point of view, its scary just how much goes on and the hoops Autodesk has to jump through. No one likes price changes, especially increases, and Autodesk doesn't take such decisions lightly. They're not stupid, it's a business, and they know that such news will go down badly with customers, but often there's a bigger picture that even a grunt like me isn't aware of. I've stolen a quote from Ken Pimentel yesterday that best sums it up for me:

"Because you all don't have the complete facts/future of what is going on. You have limited information, the rest we're not allowed to talk to you about publicly. I can understand why you might ask these questions, but it doesn't mean we don't have answers, just that we can't talk about them publicly. I'm just trying to suggest there might be a reason and it might be clearer when you get the rest of the information we're holding back."

[pluMmet]

It's not that Autodesk literally doesn't care, I think it does (well tries to, perhaps not, who knows), and Carl Bass (the CEO) values customer experience very highly. It's just that, particularly with M&E, we seem to fumble and drop the ball in the last few yards, and/or don't fully explain things properly for various reasons. Reasons that are and aren't beyond our control, sometimes.
What frustrates me and others, is that this recent Max episode kinda undos all the good work that Autodesk are doing, and yes I know using the words 'Autodesk' and 'good' together might be hard for some to stomach, but there is some really good stuff being done, which I hope users will eventually get to see.

What's funny though was that I was talking to a Max (Suite) user today, who uses Softimage for all his particle and simulation work. He said he found it ironic that reading the forums that users were bitching about PFlow, (which he questioned just how many people really used it and not another 3rd Party plugin) and that it has been crap for years (his words not mine), when if people took a step back, they might realise that they should be using Soft/ICE which is better anyway and then simply cache their stuff back to Max.
He wasn't bothered about the extension release, but he admitted there is a principle to the thing and his last words kinda summed it up for me - "You guys do have a habit of making these things more complicated than they need to be. Just do the right thing."
I can't argue with that really.

Recently a friend of mine had a tiff with his girlfriend because the package delivery guy made a real attempt to pick her up even well after she said she had a boyfriend.

My friend was most angered that she was defending the fellow as a "Nice Guy."

He was nice as she saw it because she was flattered by his advances.

My friend however could not get her to understand that the delivery fellows desire to corrupt her relationship was not something a "Nice Guy" would do.

Bellsey- I offer this as an example to you... I know that you have good experiences with many fine people but allowing that to override your common sense of what AD's actions are is not good...

How many wealthy crooks have donated million to charity... Loads of course but they are still crooks.

I could go on laying out specific examples of how poorly AD acts but you should have that info already whither you choose to accept it or not is on you.

Why would you though even consider it when it pays your bills ;)

[Tekano]

So we are all in agreement then that autodesk 'management' to make a clear distinction between those that do the work and those who make the decisions that impact the users, are undignified greedy businessmen. great, what I don't agree with is that its OK to be like this because the company is massive? what? How does that justify this behaviour? if anything this should make them more responsible in how their interactions with its customers are perceived. ah but of course in their desperate grab for cash they don't pay for the basic tools or services that might inform them that quite a lot of thier decisions lately are not going down to well in the ranks, and of course I'm biased here, but especially with Softimage,

And then this shady, oh but we got good shit going on but we are not allowed to show it! just you wait and see! Honest! Ive been hearing stuff about XBR for what did they say in the thread - 4 years now? sigh.. like I said if thats how the max users are treated its really not looking good for Softimage.


And Bellsy, I really do not think it was all about particles or which plugin is better than other, it was more the principal, you know, the shameless greed on display by trying to seperate the apps/users into those that bought suites and those that didnt. someone else summed it up for me quite succinctly in that thread too

So,we pay $595 for 1 year subscription then we only get $49 orbaz's Particle Flow Tools: Cache ?

what a F**King good business for Autodesk

[jamination]

This is why I don't think we can't expect practical fixes and tools in Softimage (hair, cloth, modeling brushes, etc), it doesn't work in the Autodesk model, they would rather have all of us on suites, that is why I expect more niche tools like CrowdFx, to get those pesky Max/Maya users into suites (and Softimage into suites to do hair/cloth etc.). I doubt it will affect the big guys too much, but it will probably drive the smaller studios/freelancers elsewhere.

[Bellsey]

well, I was going to attempt a reply, but frankly I can't be bothered. I can't put what I want into words, so I won't attempt to do it badly. I'm not deluded as pluMmet appears to suggest, or attempting to fully justify Autodesk's actions as Tekano thinks. I'm just offering an alternative view and some rationale reasoning.
Though it seems that no matter what occurs (good or bad), people have just decided that Autodesk are a bunch of money grabbing crooks. And it seems there's nothing that I can do or say that will even begin to change that view. So be it. I know I'm beat and of course people are perfectly entitled to their opinion and it won't stop in trying to my job for our customers. I guess for some the glass will always be half empty, whereas I see it as half full.

[Tekano]

or attempting to fully justify Autodesk's actions as Tekano thinks. I'm just offering an alternative view and some rationale reasoning.

Aw Bellsey, sorry, Graham. please don't be disheartened. I can understand in your shoes to be exausted from trying to keep back the baying crowd , and why not first names, its me Rob! I saw you out of my window at work today texting someone outside footpatrol Im not hiding behind a nickname.. I was not aiming at you and and know full well you cannot justify all of AD's actions concerning its users. how could you? Those guys are not available for discussion. was merely just pointing out that some but not all of parts of your rationale, regarding big size = OK to be a shit was perhaps slightly flawed. especially in these days of constant news of corporate greed, stupidity & corruption. its the spirit of the times right now if you have not noticed, and these things do not 'just suddenly happened'

[luceric]

And then this shady, oh but we got good shit going on but we are not allowed to show it! just you wait and see! Honest! Ive been hearing stuff about XBR for what did they say in the thread - 4 years now? sigh.. like I said if thats how the max users are treated its really not looking good for Softimage.

just for completeness: 3DSMax has been actually continually delivering their progress on XBR each release, it's not like XBR is vaporware. Scalability re-writes, QuickSilver viewport rendering, MassFX, tabbed layout/new workspace, slate editor, new ribbon UI, in-viewport overlays, all of that stuff has already shipped. It's what they had talked about in 2009, and work is continuing. So XBR is actually the counter-example of non-communication of here..

[jamination]

Personally I don't want you to feel "picked on", I think the angst most feel here is built what many consider a "weak release (SI 2013), and with no SAP to raise it up I think people believe this will be the norm now, and perhaps that Softimage may be the dumping ground for niche features to bolster suites. But obviously you are one of the good guys:)

[Bellsey]

If you saw me today, then you have damn good eyesight, because I wasn't in the London office today. lol

[Tekano]

just for completeness: 3DSMax has been actually continually delivering their progress on XBR each release, it's not like XBR is vaporware. Scalability re-writes, QuickSilver viewport rendering, MassFX, tabbed layout/new workspace, slate editor, new ribbon UI, in-viewport overlays, all of that stuff has already shipped. It's what they had talked about in 2009, and work is continuing. So XBR is actually the counter-example of non-communication of here..

ha! sorry I'm the first to admit my ignorance when it comes to Max and XBR, And although its completely non representative I've gleaned all I know about Max from that thread. so it doesnt amount to much I thought that some user had said that it was 4 years and they still didnt have XBR. are you saying that some parts of it are already bolted onto Max and its not going to be a separate app? what was interesting to me was the high number of users who didnt want or see the point of the suites other than a corporate manoeuvre to increase profits, and the latest development on Max release strategy re-enforced this. bearing in mind the threads title and all the developments with Softimage I can associate myself with these guys quite easily!