Little rumor

[Hirazi Blue]

Anyway ... I feel sorry that AD employees get bashed here as it's not their fault.

AD employees as such have nothing to fear here. We don't bash them just because they are AD employees... ;)

[Bellsey]

oooookay, let's try and clarify some things.....

in terms of the London scene and software, then Paul (Franklin - VFX supervisor and DNEG co-founder) is right, for film anyway. All the main studios doing film work are mainly using Maya. And it's been that way for many years, but before anyone starts laying into Autodesk about that, you have go back some time to see when tide turned (so to speak). In the late 90's alot of studios were actually using Softimage3D, but (to cut a very long story short), when Alias started shipping a more open Maya, and XSI being delayed, etc etc, more studios started to move to Maya and it stayed that way.
There's a sprinkling of Softimage in studios, but their main 3D package is Maya. Peerless are still mainly using Softimage for film work though.
I can't speak for Houdini, but again I can probably concur with Paul. DNEG, Framestore are big users of Houdini and I know Cinesite, The Mill and Method also use it.
Where there is still a good amount of Softimage usage, is in studios doing TV/broadcast work - commercials, tv promos, episodic, idents etc.

As for IBC, Softimage isn't being shown on the main theatre, but that's because IBC isn't really a traditional 3D/CG show, it's a broadcast show and so alot of our focus and effort is around our creative finishing products such as Flame and Smoke. If you look at this years demo schedule, you'll see most of the presentations are around these products. There are only two Suite presentations a day, one for Maya, one for Max. These presentations are only an hour, and they have to run to time otherwise it can start to disrupt the schedule. Although an hour may seem like a long time, it's not long to pack in 4/5 products. There's also probably a little bit more focus than usual on Maya and Max because we've just starting shipping their 2014 Extension releases (I don't want to debate the lack of a Softimage 2014.5, we've done that one).
I don'd agree that the Maya presentation is terrible, Roland works in my team and top guy, he really knows his stuff and he does a good job when explaining features, and their benefits.

We do have a demo station at the side of our booth, where we're showing the Suite so we can show Softimage where possible. I'm also at IBC, but I'm doing slots on the Nvidia stand showing (with the exception of Max) our Suites running on the latest Dell and Nvdia hardware. I've been showing alot of Maya and Mudbox, but also Softimage.

And finally, I'm not sure what Youtube page you are referring too. I don't believe we have an official Youtube channel for Softimage, other than the official learning channel. And that's the far from dead, the last upload was 4 days ago. If you want to see alot more activity and customer work, then I would look at the Softimage Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/AutodeskSoftimage

[MauricioPC]

Hi Bellsey,

I just shared my impressions, not confirming nothing, just impressions. As you said, Softimage is being used more in commercials and tv promos, idents, etc. So for that I think it would be more suited to get the Maya stop at the presentation. Max is widely used in Europe for that and Softimage has some amazing tools for it too.

I don't know Roland and my opinions wasn't meant as something personal to him. Just that his presentation was more of a overview of two new Maya features (the modeling toolkit and the other I forgot) as on the other side, Louis got to show some amazing work by studios doing motion graphics, opened projects, showed the workflow, etc etc.

I can say that if I were a person at IBC in doubt about what software I should invest in "my studio" for work, the Max presentation was so killer that I would made my decision. And for that I was hoping for something similar on the Maya side. If you take the Flame presentation, there's was a lot of jobs were the presenters said Maya was the 3D package of the production, but since the presentation was about Flame, it was only mentioned. I think it would be nice to showcase some work, because all people like to see is making-of/behind-the-scenes and not necessarily an overview of features.

As far as the Youtube channel, I did meant the learning channel. I guess I should expressed myself better, but I was talking about the level of tutorials. For instance ... you have a tutorial for creating an ICE galaxy on the Softimage channel. Sure, this is for beginners, but you could easily do a more exciting galaxy than the one demonstrated. Excitement is what get users and future users to want to learn the application.

Now take a look of this tutorial for 3dsMax. It's also for beginners, but the end result is way more exciting.



I think Softimage is lacking in exciting tutorials to get the blood pumping and users excited about the possibilities of it.

-- EDIT --

Another thing. I was looking again at the learning channels. In the Maya and Max you find most playlist and videos about the software features. But only in the Softimage channel you'll find a playlist that has more about Maya and Max than about Softimage.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB177DEA76347E631

[Bellsey]

I don't know Roland and my opinions wasn't meant as something personal to him. Just that his presentation was more of a overview of two new Maya features (the modeling toolkit and the other I forgot) as on the other side, Louis got to show some amazing work by studios doing motion graphics, opened projects, showed the workflow, etc etc.

For Max, we were able to secure some customer work to use in demos, we were unable to do the same for Maya. We try very hard to obtain datasets from customer on specific work, however more often than not, many don't want to share data with us. And if they are willing, there can obtain be other factors that restricts us from actually using it.

I can say that if I were a person at IBC in doubt about what software I should invest in "my studio" for work, the Max presentation was so killer that I would made my decision. And for that I was hoping for something similar on the Maya side. If you take the Flame presentation, there's was a lot of jobs were the presenters said Maya was the 3D package of the production, but since the presentation was about Flame, it was only mentioned. I think it would be nice to showcase some work, because all people like to see is making-of/behind-the-scenes and not necessarily an overview of features.

If I was starting out now and had to choose between Maya or Max, personally I would choose Maya every time. Though, of course I'm being biased and I've often made no secret of the fact that I'm not a fan of Max in any way, but I still have a respect for it. Although, even if you took away my acquired knowledge, in the early days of my career, Max, Maya, and XSI (as it was) were kinda in their infancy, so there wasn't quite the emotional attachment to these packages that there is now. However, I chose Maya and Softimage (XSI) over Max, and my reasons, (imo) still stand today. To be honest, I can't say I've ever regretted never really getting into Max, but that's just my opinion of course.

As for Flame, yes alot of Flame studios also use Maya, however as I've previously mentioned, it can be very hard to secure demo data for us to use. And often even though we might get some Flame data, we can't always get the accompanying 3D scene data. I'd love to do more interop demos and workflows, but it can take some considerable time to put this together.
If you look at our GDC and Siggraph booth theatres, then we actually try to have more customer presentations than our own people, as people always want to see people talk about their projects. We also do this for Flame as well and have done so at this IBC, but it's somewhat easier for our 3D products. Someone can literally rock up with just a laptop and demo, whereas a Flame runs on a turnkey system and data archiving/restoring alone can take some time.

As far as the Youtube channel, I did meant the learning channel. I guess I should expressed myself better, but I was talking about the level of tutorials. For instance ... you have a tutorial for creating an ICE galaxy on the Softimage channel. Sure, this is for beginners, but you could easily do a more exciting galaxy than the one demonstrated. Excitement is what get users and future users to want to learn the application.
I think Softimage is lacking in exciting tutorials to get the blood pumping and users excited about the possibilities of it.

Another thing. I was looking again at the learning channels. In the Maya and Max you find most playlist and videos about the software features. But only in the Softimage channel you'll find a playlist that has more about Maya and Max than about Softimage.

I'm not responsible for the Youtube channels and I don't create content for them either, there are depts who source and produce our learning materials. There are larger communities for Maya and Max, so there's a larger pool to dip into when researching materials.
I think what the guys have done with the Softimage channel isn't bad. There are actually some good places to get Softimage tutorials but not many actually explain the basic concepts of ICE, in a simple way that new users can understand. I think the videos on the channel actually do a good job of that, and they can be accessed from inside the package, from the help menu.

I see what you are saying about the playlists, however, you've highlighted a playlist for Entertainment Creation Suite Workflows. Suites containing multiple packages - Max, Maya, Mudbox, Motionbuilder, and Softimage, so it stands to reason that there will be learning materials that show how users can use these packages together in their workflows.

I'm not saying we do a perfect job, but we do try and get as many learning materials as we can.

[MauricioPC]

Hey Bellsey, thanks for this long explanation. I appreciate it.

As for the last statement, I'm not accusing you guys of not doing a good job, God forbid. What I was saying (and you explained on your post) is that I would like to see more stuff from Softimage. To be honest, I prefer Softimage and Maya than 3ds Max, but there's so much training on nice things Max that you kind of want to learn.

Thoses videos of Max that make some nice mograph, the background animation of the youtube channels, etc. I would like to do that stuff on Softimage but, at the moment, you only find old tutorials or new that are more general. Maybe I'll get good and make some to help other users.

In the future, if all goes well, I'll be an FX TD. And yes, I should learn Houdini, but I think today I prefer to learn Maya/Softimage. But it'll be hard to get good at both, so I'm in trouble. In more trouble if you think I'll probably have to make some motion graphics stuff too, as there's a lot of jobs requesting it.

In the perfect world I'll study Maya to know more on the FX side and study Softimage for the all-around application and some motion graphics work.

And if anybody is interested ... I started doing the course of Luis Pages (VFXLearning.com) on Maya FX TD and, even though I'm still at the entry level course, I'm loving.

Now let me go back to the Intro to Softimage 2014. It's kind of a mess (it could be more structured), but I'm learning.

[luceric]

In the perfect world I'll study Maya to know more on the FX side and study Softimage for the all-around application and some motion graphics work.

obviously, Maya is an all-around app, even though some user interface bits are hilariously clunky compared to the equivalent feature in Softimage. It covers the same grounds. It has features the other doesn't like fluid, paintfx, xgen, various bits in modeling and animation. But it doesn't have a procedural FX graph, that's in Softimage only. So I'd reverse that statement. Don't waste time learning old-style expression-based particles in Maya if you also have Softimage in your toolset, or the old-style dynamics. Currently, you'd study maya to be an animation or pipeline TD. It's python/qt heaven.

But how can you start putting hours and hours of learning and working if you don't even have an idea of what is to come from the software in the future.

Frankly I thought you were onto something here, and that the whole IBC discussion or the "missing tutorials" discussion are distractions. Except you do know what is to come, or while you can't tell what you're going to get in the next couple of years, you should be able to guess what the job market will be like in 5 years or more, let's say.

[MauricioPC]

Obviously, Maya is an all-around app, even though some user interface bits are hilariously clunky compared to the equivalent feature in Softimage. It covers the same grounds. It has features the other doesn't like fluid, paintfx, xgen, various bits in modeling and animation. But it doesn't have a procedural FX graph, that's in Softimage only. So I'd reverse that statement. Don't waste time learning old-style expression-based particles in Maya if you also have Softimage in your toolset, or the old-style dynamics. Currently, you'd study maya to be an animation or pipeline TD. It's python/qt heaven.

Yeah, I know Maya is also an all-around app. Actually, Max, Maya and Softimage are. But some have more strengths than the other. I would like to go only the Softimage rule, but since I'll probably, hopefully, will have to work for others, then it's nice to know the software that has the most job openings.

Frankly I thought you were onto something here, and that the whole IBC discussion or the "missing tutorials" discussion are distractions. Except you do know what is to come, or while you can't tell what you're going to get in the next couple of years, you should be guess what the job market will be like in 5 years or more, let's say.

You kind of lost me in here. If you are saying that I have and idea of what the future holds but I don't want to believe in that, then you are correct.

I guess I'm searching for the freelancer tool of choice (that in the future will lend me jobs in FX).

[Lord Futzi Voldemort]

Frankly I thought you were onto something here, and that the whole IBC discussion or the "missing tutorials" discussion are distractions. Except you do know what is to come, or while you can't tell what you're going to get in the next couple of years, you should be able to guess what the job market will be like in 5 years or more, let's say.

I think you unwillingly revealed one of AD's "secret" fears right now ;)
What will the industries state be in 5 years? Given all the pricing pressure and the resulting financial problems of many vfx companies recently, it really is hard to say. I do understand, that a company with such a portfolio can easily miscalculate and lose a lot. While others, who must maintain only one product, can react a lot quicker. AD seems to try to avoid anything that would result in a long term obligation in terms of road map. Or commitment.
One more reason to put your money on smaller companies - or OS software - as a freelancer.

[MauricioPC]

Frankly I thought you were onto something here, and that the whole IBC discussion or the "missing tutorials" discussion are distractions. Except you do know what is to come, or while you can't tell what you're going to get in the next couple of years, you should be able to guess what the job market will be like in 5 years or more, let's say.

I think you unwillingly revealed one of AD's "secret" fears right now ;)
What will the industries state be in 5 years? Given all the pricing pressure and the resulting financial problems of many vfx companies recently, it really is hard to say. I do understand, that a company with such a portfolio can easily miscalculate and loose a lot. While others, who must maintain only one product, can react a lot quicker. AD seems to try to avoid anything that would result in a long term obligation in terms of road map. Or commitment.
One more reason to put your money on smaller companies - or OS software - as a freelancer.

Well, I guess as long as some studios continue to use Softimage (Blur, studios in Japan, London, etc), there's still hope. So I feel confident in learning it. And, if the time comes ... I'll jump to Maya or Houdini, who knows.

At least the learning curve from the beginning seems easier in Soft-land.

[Lord Futzi Voldemort]

Frankly I thought you were onto something here, and that the whole IBC discussion or the "missing tutorials" discussion are distractions. Except you do know what is to come, or while you can't tell what you're going to get in the next couple of years, you should be able to guess what the job market will be like in 5 years or more, let's say.

I think you unwillingly revealed one of AD's "secret" fears right now ;)
What will the industries state be in 5 years? Given all the pricing pressure and the resulting financial problems of many vfx companies recently, it really is hard to say. I do understand, that a company with such a portfolio can easily miscalculate and loose a lot. While others, who must maintain only one product, can react a lot quicker. AD seems to try to avoid anything that would result in a long term obligation in terms of road map. Or commitment.
One more reason to put your money on smaller companies - or OS software - as a freelancer.

Well, I guess as long as some studios continue to use Softimage (Blur, studios in Japan, London, etc), there's still hope. So I feel confident in learning it. And, if the time comes ... I'll jump to Maya or Houdini, who knows.

At least the learning curve from the beginning seems easier in Soft-land.

Of course, learn anything you can. Think about what you buy.

[luceric]

can anyone point me to the roadmap and plans for modo and houdini? Thanks.

[MauricioPC]

can anyone point me to the roadmap and plans for modo and houdini? Thanks.

Point to roadmap nobody can I guess. But modo aside (because it's still growing to be a full application), if you like at the improvements with each version of Houdini, they are quite impressive.

Anyway ... I'm enjoying Softimage even more now. Thanks for those great Youtube links.

[Lord Futzi Voldemort]

can anyone point me to the roadmap and plans for modo and houdini? Thanks.

Actually, If you look at what they did in the last few upgrades, the question for a roadmap doesn't seem very pressing.
It's the experience with the past, that makes people question the future.

[Hirazi Blue]

Actually, If you look at what Autodesk did to Softimage in the last few upgrades, the question for a roadmap doesn't seem very pressing either, I'm afraid...
;)