Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

News concerning 3D DCC business
luceric
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Joined: 21 Jun 2009, 22:08

Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by luceric » 12 Aug 2012, 21:07

SreckoM wrote:
I wonder what's different between this and, say, if the guys who make Maxwell decided to make it run on Amazon EC3? multi-optics sounds like another physical light renderer
There is already something like that, for some time, called Felixrender.
I've never heard of that one; my point was more about creating a new physical renderer on the cloud vs an existing, production proven one. Have someone knowledgable explain how the new renderer is differentiated.

Btw, Autodesk has Autodesk 360 which is a collaboration and rendering tool on the cloud. Mental Images had worked for years on something callled Incremental Image which was a cloud based mental ray for collaborative rendering and reviewing across the web (it didn't pan out.)

Kzin
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Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by Kzin » 13 Aug 2012, 13:24

felixrender is maxwell based, so it cant be fast, by default. ;)

alanf
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Joined: 14 Jun 2009, 18:22

Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by alanf » 14 Aug 2012, 15:32

luceric wrote:
SreckoM wrote:
I wonder what's different between this and, say, if the guys who make Maxwell decided to make it run on Amazon EC3? multi-optics sounds like another physical light renderer
There is already something like that, for some time, called Felixrender.
I've never heard of that one; my point was more about creating a new physical renderer on the cloud vs an existing, production proven one. Have someone knowledgable explain how the new renderer is differentiated.

Btw, Autodesk has Autodesk 360 which is a collaboration and rendering tool on the cloud. Mental Images had worked for years on something callled Incremental Image which was a cloud based mental ray for collaborative rendering and reviewing across the web (it didn't pan out.)
Hi Luc, :)
I'm friends with Thiago and I was fortunate to have him demo TeamUp MultiOptics in person about month ago. Having seen it in action first-hand, I dare say It's fantastic!

Here's what I know:

What does MultiOptics have over other renderers?
** Unbiased renderers like Maxwell and similar tend to be very pretty but very slow. MultiOptics is stupid crazy fast, losing perceptible sampling noise within a minute or less. I don't have hard benchmarks to lay down but just commenting on what I saw.
** MO also uses material shading models that have been actually measured from physical real materials. It has a growing library of physical materials that look incredible. -- Their subsurface, hair and and sand grain materials are particularly phenomenal. (MO renders the most realistic sand I ever saw, and sand is really *hard* to get right! Sony would have loved to render Spiderman's Sandman in this had it existed back then.)

The asynchronicity feature of TeamUp is also a lot of fun. An absurd number of people can simultaneously edit the same scene, bringing in assets, creating/placing lights, repositioning anything, changing camera angles, rendering alternative cameras, changing materials and any attributes, etc. It's all done in the browser with modern technologies like HTML5 and WebGL. No Flash or any other plugins required. It runs very snappy on Chrome and Firefox. Oh and when I say asynchronous I really mean every nuisance. If I'm slowly rotating an asset, it doesn't update when I let go... it updates constantly every few ms and everyone can see the changes happening in their own browser.

I was told there is a backlog of all user events so it should be theoretically possible to have the scene go back in time to any point. Also there is no Save button. Everything is saved constantly (much like modern web apps like Google Docs.) If your computer dies, your building loses power, or you spill coffee on the keyboard, just go to another computer, login and open the scene exactly as it was left off; no problem!

It's also cool to just watch people work. A supervisor could very easily open scenes from his computer and see how the shots are doing in realtime! I can't wait to see them implement volume rendering, too. I bet MO fire and smoke is going to look incredible!

As for the point about MO not being production-proven, well, it's early still. Give them a chance. You know what's production proven though? Thiago Costa himself! ;)

I'm very excited to see where this goes. It's not hard to envision a potential future where we have simpler, lighter computers at work and can do our jobs the same from a netbook, a workstation or even an iPad.

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ActionArt
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Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by ActionArt » 14 Aug 2012, 16:15

Sounds very interesting! Hope the open beta starts soon. I really hope they support volume rendering because nothing else seems to except MR.

I'm hoping they can do kind of the same thing with Lagoa (or similar simulation) sometime. I just needs speed.

RomanSI
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Joined: 30 Jul 2012, 04:47

Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by RomanSI » 14 Aug 2012, 17:06

Yeah, that sounds very tempting!!!
But I am very interested, it is possible to render the animation?
If so, in what way?
Alembic would be a good for this!

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bottleofram
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Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by bottleofram » 14 Aug 2012, 17:09

So all the data resides on the server right? Not really knowledgeable about this, but how does the viewport work in this case? Is it streaming images or is at least some computation done client-side?

Also, usual questions: who owns the data and is the connection encrypted/secured in any way?

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TwinSnakes007
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Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by TwinSnakes007 » 14 Aug 2012, 17:13

ActionArt wrote:I really hope they support volume rendering because nothing else seems to except MR.
Mitsuba supports volume rendering.

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ActionArt
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Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by ActionArt » 14 Aug 2012, 17:25

TwinSnakes007 wrote:
ActionArt wrote:I really hope they support volume rendering because nothing else seems to except MR.
Mitsuba supports volume rendering.
True, but no real integration with SI which is more or less useless IMO except as a toy. If you have to export as Collada every time you want to render something, no matter how great the render engine might be it's a workflow killer to say the least.

It seems though that Teamup hasn't mentioned anything about integration either...

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SamHowell
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Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by SamHowell » 15 Aug 2012, 10:02

alanf wrote:
Hi Luc, :)
I'm friends with Thiago and I was fortunate to have him demo TeamUp MultiOptics in person about month ago. Having seen it in action first-hand, I dare say It's fantastic!

Here's what I know:

What does MultiOptics have over other renderers?
** Unbiased renderers like Maxwell and similar tend to be very pretty but very slow. MultiOptics is stupid crazy fast, losing perceptible sampling noise within a minute or less. I don't have hard benchmarks to lay down but just commenting on what I saw.
** MO also uses material shading models that have been actually measured from physical real materials. It has a growing library of physical materials that look incredible. -- Their subsurface, hair and and sand grain materials are particularly phenomenal. (MO renders the most realistic sand I ever saw, and sand is really *hard* to get right! Sony would have loved to render Spiderman's Sandman in this had it existed back then.)

The asynchronicity feature of TeamUp is also a lot of fun. An absurd number of people can simultaneously edit the same scene, bringing in assets, creating/placing lights, repositioning anything, changing camera angles, rendering alternative cameras, changing materials and any attributes, etc. It's all done in the browser with modern technologies like HTML5 and WebGL. No Flash or any other plugins required. It runs very snappy on Chrome and Firefox. Oh and when I say asynchronous I really mean every nuisance. If I'm slowly rotating an asset, it doesn't update when I let go... it updates constantly every few ms and everyone can see the changes happening in their own browser.

I was told there is a backlog of all user events so it should be theoretically possible to have the scene go back in time to any point. Also there is no Save button. Everything is saved constantly (much like modern web apps like Google Docs.) If your computer dies, your building loses power, or you spill coffee on the keyboard, just go to another computer, login and open the scene exactly as it was left off; no problem!

It's also cool to just watch people work. A supervisor could very easily open scenes from his computer and see how the shots are doing in realtime! I can't wait to see them implement volume rendering, too. I bet MO fire and smoke is going to look incredible!

As for the point about MO not being production-proven, well, it's early still. Give them a chance. You know what's production proven though? Thiago Costa himself! ;)

I'm very excited to see where this goes. It's not hard to envision a potential future where we have simpler, lighter computers at work and can do our jobs the same from a netbook, a workstation or even an iPad.
Thanks for the info, it's nice to hear some more information from someoene in the know.

So for now it's just still images and mesh import by I'm guessing .OBJ or something similar? It's a good start, hopefully over time some kind of Alembic implentation will allow transfer of most scene elements and animation from most applications to TeamUp.

I like the monthly license fee, will this be a sort of pay as you go system or do we have to commit to set periods of usage?

As for teamworking, this all sounds a cool but the idea of my boss sitting there and watching me work in real time may be a step too far. :-s

Matic
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Joined: 18 Jun 2009, 17:58

Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by Matic » 23 Aug 2012, 17:14

I have mixed feelings viewing this from afar (not on beta atm). A renderer which yields physically-based-looking results but quickly, that piques my interest.

The collaborative aspect is ok, but it's one of those things that gives good demo without necessarily being compelling for production. It's a valuable plus, but not something I would base my choice of renderers on, because the majority of production work I've dealt with can't be shown to clients without going through a compositing step. Even while I do a great amount of work remotely, realtime lighting decisions are not usually what needs discussion. So it's not enough to act as a primary draw, for me, although the flexibility is certainly a benefit.

The people involved get my full attention, though. It's entirely possible there's a workflow or paradigm I'm not seeing here, and I'll be listening to them carefullly as we learn more. What does this software have to offer me over options like Arnold? Physically based materials much faster than maxwell? Ok, that's compelling. Multi-user remote collaboration? Interesting, but the renderer has to compete in all other regards before it becomes a deal maker. $80-100/month means price isn't it's selling point, although that pricing isn't bad. So, my questions would be:

Is it physically based then? Can stylized/artistic looks also be achieved, and special effects passes like luminous materials, fractal masks etc?

It sounds like collaborative shot setup is part of the tool. If so, this is interesting and potentially a major draw. How does it fit in and compare, then, with tools like katana?

How much control does the user have in terms of making new materials and shaders? If there is something powerful like krakatoa's magmaflow in the works, then we wants it, my precious...

What is the artists experience like using it? One of the reasons some of the newer renderers are so popular is ease of use, the artist can focus on the artwork and not fight with a learning curve. How does the product balance the need for control with a need for simple usability?

Is there support for rendering things other than geometry, for instance point clouds or implicit surfaces?

What is the workflow like in terms of getting assets to the renderer, and what passes and formats does the renderer output?

How does the renderer deal with post process effects like DoF, lens types, shapes and distortion, color grading, and the alll-important motion blur?

If collaborative use and near realtime, physical results are the selling point, I would expect it to have potential with product and motion design, previs etc but not perhaps commercials and film. Is it targeted at competitors like Bunkspeed shot and iRay? Or is it intended for film and animation?

One way or another Thiago and his team are people I respect and admire, who have a proven track record of innovation. So whatever they do and whatever their eventual answers are to these kinds of questions, I'll be paying close attention and cheering for them. :)

scaron
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Joined: 08 Jul 2009, 03:16

Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by scaron » 23 Aug 2012, 23:41

Matic wrote:How much control does the user have in terms of making new materials and shaders? If there is something powerful like krakatoa's magmaflow in the works, then we wants it, my precious...)
sorry to pick your post apart but what does magmaflow have to do with a physically based rendering application that uses cloud computing on the backend?

Matic
Posts: 70
Joined: 18 Jun 2009, 17:58

Re: Thiago's Teamup and Mr. Jones

Post by Matic » 05 Sep 2012, 04:12

scaron wrote:sorry to pick your post apart but what does magmaflow have to do with a physically based rendering application that uses cloud computing on the backend?
Not at all, on re-reading my OP I wasn't being clear. What is appealing to me about magma flow is how it gives users a framework from which they can control many aspects of their render through data channels... While we're talking apples and oranges, an analogous system aimed at giving users ways to shape their final result would be of great interest to me, whatever form it might take (a render tree, or mental-mill-like tool perhaps, or some entirely new idea? Do we write shaders for this thing, or what?)

But it's all just speculation, what I'm really getting at is wanting to see some compelling reason I should be interested in another renderer. Collaboration, ok, but what else is cool with this teamup thing?