OK, so the sky isn't falling, but AD isn't marketing SI well

[Bellsey]

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/in ... eID=123112

Are you sure that SI it is being treated equally? These are the contradictions (maybe not the correct word) I was mentioning, this is the third time here that we have be reassured then the following few weeks a new marketing campaign appears and well the ad speaks for it's self. I am not trying to re hash, I am just pointing out we are not doom and gloom here, we are purely pointing what you show us is not a positive approach to marketing SI as a standalone product and frankly without looking deeper into this ad you would not know AD owned Softimage.

There's nothing in that link and pages that contradicts what others and myself have been saying. I can see where you are coming from, but its all too easy to things at face value. Softimage is not listed there, but then neither is Motionbuilder, Mudbox, Flame, Flare, Smoke, Lustre, etc. Yet you will find these products in the pages about pipelines. These pages and portals are the start of something that you will see more of going forward. But at the moment from a specific product point of view, its appears focused on our new products, which are the Suites, in particular the Premium Suites that we announced recently.

The wording is impeccable... "Softimage® ICE", indeed

Erm, there's actually nothing wrong with the wording at all. It's refering to a technology that resides in Softimage. It's as simple as that and the same as if we were also referring to Maya® Nucleus.

Softimage ICE as the plugin it apparently really has become

Softimage ICE has not become a plugin and if you are going to make comments like this without them appearing to be fear mongering, please back them up with some solid facts.

[Hirazi Blue]

My remark might have been a bit cynical I must admit. But to highlight one single feature of Softimage in the whole advertisement is saying to the customers nothing else than "for your ICE needs, we'll include Softimage".

It seems perfectly clear to me, you guys are making a mess of things,
not us who are pointing this out, who you seem to gladly belittle and ridicule...

Again with the "don't shoot the messenger".
And sorry if all that's highlighted about Softimage in that advertisement is ICE,
then there is something rotten in the state of Softimage...

Luckily even the "important people" have started another thread also...


edit: removed two remarks that could be construed as "hateful",
but really, really, really weren't meant that way...

[Bellsey]

It seems perfectly clear to me, you guys are making a mess of things,
not us who are pointing this out, who you seem to gladly belittle and ridicule...

I am not setting out to belitte or ridicule anyone. And I do not agree in your assesment that we are making a mess of things, and personally I find that comment very unfair, especially to the guys in Montreal who are working very hard. However, fairs fair, you are of course prefectly entitled to your opinion.

I have also been reading the thread on the mailing list and personally I'm with EricT.
ICE is a differenciator and although Softimage does have many other great features, highighting the features like the modelling and rendering to Max user/studio (for example) is not enough of a convincer for them.

PS And if you really only read, what you want to read
(and try not to read it in its context and/or the spirit it is obviously intended)...

Erm ok, but I don't selectively read comments, or cherry pick but this is also a case of the 'pot calling the kettle black', imo.

[redmotion]

At least you have the luxury of having some info about the new version, mostly when I renew my Subscription the new version is months away and there is no info about it whatsoever...

Indeed - you're right.

2011.5 looks extremely promising! Perhaps I was hoping for a reason NOT to buy subscription again...

It seems perfectly clear to me, you guys are making a mess of things,
not us who are pointing this out, who you seem to gladly belittle and ridicule...

Hirazi - I didn't read the "hateful" comments - as you are the owner of this web community I can understand you being a little more anxious than most in regards to Softimage's future. But I think your comments are getting a bit hysterical now...

I'm sorry to say this but I believe that the premium suites have bruised a few SI egos which isn't surprising (unfortunately noone will admit to this, however, that being the nature of the ego...). Guess I don't have to work with any smug Max and Maya users so this whole thing doesn't hurt me quite as much!

EDIT:

highighting the features like the modelling and rendering to Max user/studio (for example) is not enough of a convincer for them.

It would be if you could integrate ICE into SI as a way of expanding the modelling tools. If you could also allow the UI to be modified in the same way then the community would be able to modify workflows within workflows. (Like change the way the extrude operator works - if it was an ICE tree).

[Hirazi Blue]

The "you guys" comment was directed at the marketing (that's what this thread was all about), but that might be a bit unfair also.

Erm ok, but I don't selectively read comments, or cherry pick but this is also a case of the 'pot calling the kettle black', imo.

Okay, you got me there...

Hirazi - I didn't read the "hateful" comments - as you are the owner of this web community I can understand you being a little more anxious than most in regards to Softimage's future. But I think your comments are getting a bit hysterical now...

To set the record straight: I don't "own" this community, owei does...
I just spend/waste way too much time here!

[electricgeisha]

Ok getting really confused here... "don't take things on face value" so what are we meant to take from these advertising anlges? I am a user so affectively they don't really have an impact on me but for individuals or companies looking at Autodesk products and or Softimage they are going to take that campaign as face value advertising.... that is just basic reading of the website presented.

Its a fab ad I love it, hell makes me more and more to forget SI and move on to be honest... the way you guys promote Max and Maya is top notch!

That is the frustration here... sure say ICE! ICE!!!! but after that say pssst you know what it is a complete package that could be used as your staple app of choice. Why is that so hard? Why can't it be approached on a basic marketing 101 level? Again it is just my opinion, I know it holds no impact on the greater scheme of things... and a lot of us agree with Andy on this one.. Eric has valid points I agree, but the reality is the way Softimage is presented to the greater market place is not the reality of what the software package offers.

[Bellsey]

Well I don't decide on marketing etc, so they're the people to really complain to, if you really want to.
I have posted before my views about the marketing and positioning, so I won't repeat myself. To me, its clear, but then I have the luxury of having customer and market data. I also get to see and talk to many different customers, sometimes online views and opinions do reflect what customers say in private. However sometimes they can also be completely different.

[redmotion]

@electricgeisha:

Can I just say that 3d general apps is a market which notoriously difficult to make inroads in terms of userbase. People stick with what they know unless they have no choice but to change. Learning materials are still so vague and unhelpful for most packages that its still takes weeks to get truly proficient and good with an application. SI has done incredibly well to raise the profile of XSI against the odds (after their disastrous pricing mistakes during the early versions) and also reassure users after the take over.

Its been almost 2 years since the takeover. If Autodesk just wanted to kill off the main competition they would have canned SI straight away. They haven't.

Now, the general usage parts of an generalist 3d package are the most used, most different between each package and most frustrating to learn. Focusing on ICE gives a reason for users to begin learning Softimage, without being annoyed by how different the modelling or rendering, etc seems (at first glance). They have nothing to compare ICE too, except maybe Houdini. They won't win NEW customers by saying "take a look at our unique, crazy-to-use polymesh extrude function."

[Rez007]

I think people should read the link that Hirazi posted which is the current discussion on the XSI Mailing List, that we are having here. A certain poster mentions he is the head of a studio that runs a Softimage Pipeline - he employs artists and works on 6-8 feature films a year. He too is very discouarged about the way Autodesk markets Softimage, being uncertin about what his future holds for his company, because his clients push for what is in the "limelight."


Here is a post from that person on the Mailing List:

"I should follow this up with a disclaimer. Those who know me personally know that this isn't an attempt at any kind of flame war. I like xsi, I like my fellow artists, and I like Autodesk and the many good people who work there.

I am just trying to be blunt and direct about an issue that is, in very real ways, affecting my business. My studio is being forced to choose Maya over xsi again and again, not because of any technical issue but because of client perceptions and difficulty in recruiting xsi trained talent.

This stuff needs to be said, in the community public.

Autodesk's marketing stance is, for my studio, a very real influence on our bottom line, and it's one of a number of factors preventing us from using xsi to any great extent on the 6-8 major motion pictures we are involved with every year."


He makes some very valid points in his other posts as well.... Just seems to me that Autodesk should look at this guy's point of view - because Autodesk's current marketing strategy might be biting them in the ass very soon.

[electricgeisha]

Well one would hope that AD's marketing team would use a better sales pitch than "take a look at our unique, crazy-to-use polymesh extrude function." but hey you never know.... @Rez007 yes that was Andy's comment and I totally agree.

[Maximus]

Hm well i think i already spoke my mind about how poorly SI is pushed by AD but there are some things i would like to point out.
Just think that Eric Mootz, and Thiago Costa made more marketing in few months than Autodesk in 2+ years of acquisition, did you ever saw a banner or something for Softimage by AD? except the splash screen on area when they bought it.

We all whine about there is no marketing or poor marketing on SI but if you have to push something you need to have something that others dont have or that is worth the "lets try it out".

this SADLY (and i underline Sadly) is only ICE.
Bein a softimage user i have friends who use maya, i've used max for years and i hear people say SI is better, it does stuff better and such. Well i'm in a point where i cant catch this difference anymore if not for Render Tree and ICE wich is a unique feature inside XSI.
What is the other reason why a studio should think to switch to XSI? What are those wonderful tools SI has over maya/max? Can someone enlight me?
Modeling? Maya + nex dRaster tools is way better than XSI for modeling, Max has 10 times more tools and interaction with splines than XSI.

Wanna speak about rigging? i'm no animator but i dont think maya lacks something for rigging.
Now you can say maybe XSI do some operation better, well maybe, but is this worth for the studio to change pipeline and buy soft?

My point is. How many years XSI didnt get modeling tools revamped, rigging, composite, everything else than ICE.
To me it seems now its going one way, its a tool for VFX because of ICE.
When was last time HAIR got updated? Cloth? all gonna die waiting for great implementation on ICE, wich might be good, but you cant of course cry if then the software gets a "plug-in" etiquette.

Sadly i see more appealing thing on the other side than in SI side, look at lighting tools in maya/max, rendering options, modeling tools, sometimes you should think about it, what makes XSI better than the other 2? (if there is a better one).

So again, ICE is the only thing that makes SI unique in its genre, because the other 2 apply maya and max doesnt have this powerfull too, but they have other great things that make them unique too. (IE Paint FX; Nucleus, cloth, particles, multi-render engines, plugins, entire world etc)

So in the end, i'm more worried of the developing going only into ICE, modeling will not get touch, there are really a lot of things that would be nice to have for modeling, just take a look a modo, profiles, curves, sweeps, extrusions, all great modifiers and stuff EASY to use, unit system, and the list goes.

I can only sit down and watch what happens but to my eyes, i dont think we'll see any update in the other sections of the software if not ICE only, and this will be a signal.
I hope to be wrong but well.....
Gave up on mental ray too, maybe in 2015 if XSI still exist we'll get to play with progressive rendering properly integrated with a proper documentation.

go out and watch some falling stars and think of a wish, thats how it finally ends.
The bad thing is that now Softimage = ICE only, and thats the real problem.

[Rez007]

@electricgeisha - Yup, thanks. I knew it was Andy, I just didn't want to cross-reference his name directly if we wasn't aware of his commetns being used in another thread/forum.

@Max and in general -

I fully agree with you and I have been basically saying the same thing in past posts. I feel that major companies are not going to shift over to Softimage, even with this new suite, but rather just "cherry pick" out the parts that they like. They will then tell Autodesk what features need to be beefed up, which will be ICE and Face Robot. The marketing behind Face Robot even suggests that you can start your character's face in Softimage and then take it to Maya for even further flexability. If Eric Moots and Thiago Costa did not come out with their programs, what would otherwise be the new additions that would make people want to get Softimage on subscription? I have no idea...because nothing was said, eventhough we are in a new fiscal quater for Softimage. Both Lagao Multiphysics and emPloygonizer are both ICE related...

I have used Max in the past, not Maya, and I now currently have my pipeline built around Softimage. I am a one man studio/freelancer, and for me I don't really care what software is better than the others, I am not a fanboy by any means...I just want to know where I need to put my money. You are right about the features in Max and Maya versus Softiamge, and I agree with you there too - there are some kickass things in both of those packages that I wish I had too within Softimage. Do I have the money to fork over the extra cash to get one of those Premium Bundles? Maybe, if I went to my backyard and watered my "money tree" some more it might give me a present the next day. I doubt I am going to get dollar-for-dollar for what Softimage and Gold Subscription is worth in an upgrade path, so to me it is a lot of money, which ever way I choose. Going the upgrade route is a big jump in cash, (which you do get a lot for - I am not denying that), or I can stay in the stand alone version, but if ICE and Face Robot are the only things that are going to see further development, then that can be worse for me in the later stages.

To me, I wouldn't care if Autodesk got rid of all three and just came out with a new single version all together, becasue what is going on now is quite silly to be honest. Who knows, maybe that is the master plan for a couple of years down the road. I can see that being a very real possiblity especailly with these new bundles forming. Anyway, I do like the hard work that Chinny and the others are putting in and the effort from Eric, Thiago and other 3rd party supporters. However though, if all of the new things are ICE related, whether it is straight from Autodesk or a 3rd party, then that tells me a lot too. I am hoping when Arnold finally gets released, that might push Softimage into a somewhat better light.

Dont get me wrong, I think ICE and Face Robot are realy really cool, but on the advent of ICE, it was marketed to me that it was an "every artist's" tool, not just a TD's tool. Of coarse that marketing was under Avid...The only thing that is left in my mind, is when Avid sent me a nice letter saying that they are listening to their customers and are restructuring their work ethics and development...then they sold Softimage to Autodesk 3 weeks later. My point, is that the developers can say what they want to me, but Autodesk controls the money, not the developers. What Autodesk does and how they handle a product, carries more weight to me - because they can at anytime terminate a software or change its direction...

All I know, if a studio that does major feature films and employs artists all based on a Softimage pipeline, is concerned about how the future will effect his company...that gets me thinking too.

(This is Marketing related, and I do appreciate the Autodesk employees who come on here trying to shed better light on the issue, but if you have a direct email address to the marketing team at Autodesk that you wouldn't mind posting here or sending me directly, that would be much appreciated.)

[luceric]

If Eric Moots and Thiago Costa did not come out with their programs, what would otherwise be the new additions that would make people want to get Softimage on subscription? I have no idea...because nothing was said, eventhough we are in a new fiscal quater for Softimage. Both Lagao Multiphysics and emPloygonizer are both ICE related...

We released 2011 SP1 just 2 months ago! Do you really really think that in a few weeks the Subscription update is going to come up with new features across the software? Subscription releases at Autodesk are about providing a few minor fixes and tweaks, plus some additional value to subscription customers, for example bundled plug-ins or new sample presets. Something that doesn't cost a lot of internal development so we can focus on the next major release.

[Pooby]

Why is it that some people see ICE as only useful to people who want to make Nodal ICE trees from scratch, and then complain because they dont see themselves as someone with the abilities to do that?
since ICE there has been loads of useful xsi tools that anyone can use, but this seems to be overlooked because, what?... they don't look like official tools?.

[Bellsey]

I agree and don't see how Softimage being ICE only is a bad thing. But it could be that people perhaps often forget or overlook as to what ICE actually is. It's not just a node based workflow for doing particles, simulations, etc. It's a whole technology and platform that can be built upon; it's visual programming and not just a bunch of scripts like many non-Soft users have thought.

Just because a feature button or PPG doesn't have a ICE node tree, that doesn't mean that ICE isn't or can't be there behind the scenes powering that feature. ICE could probably power and replace many if not all of the tools and features in Softimage, including modelling, texturing, animation, rigging, rendering etc, which imo would be great. However trying to replace any core features of a software package with a whole new tech is not easy, its like trying to replace the foundations of a house, whilst someone is still living there and not making a single noise or disturbance to boot. Far from easy.

[Rez007]

I think some of things that I said were being taken out of context, when it was supposed to be referencing earlier posts and the overall marketing of Softimage - not the development. I probably should have worded it differently as I was not accusing there to be no development other than emPloygonizer or Lagao. The part I mentioned about Eric's and Thiago's software is because that is all that is on the internet/magazines/anything really in terms of awareness for anything Softimage related, and this is not just for this service pack that is being released - this type of scenario has been happening for quite some time. Almost nothing has been presented on behalf of Autodesk in terms of marketing or software awareness. I remember in the past that I would at least see advertising in 3D World for Softimage. All I see now are the small snippets that are more-or-less buried in the now very nicely presented Max and Maya PR blasts.

As for ICE, as I said before, I think it is really cool, and further development of it would be great to see. What I was referring to, is that I don’t want other important aspects of Softimage to be neglected just to benefit another.

The main point was, if a certain person of a studio with great influence is having an issue with the marketing and push of Softimage, I was just saying that maybe Autodesk should look again at their strategy before it has a reverse effect from what they might have intended.

I think we can at least all agree that there is some sort of disconnect between the development, marketing, and general user base of Softimage, and that usually stems from the PR/marketing solutions.