the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

[Kerro Perro]

Kerro Perro@ my fault (must study english with greater fervour

Nothing to do with your english skills - i've just been sharing some of my worries with a lawyer firend.

But in any case they don't say nothing about 3dsm and Maya as softimage, so is the some.

Indeed, i think this goes for a lot of companies as well

Softimage has a full development team in place, and plans for the future. But let's not look at the market with rose-colored glasses and pretend Softimage is on equal footing with the other two, that people just see a demo of it to see the light, and can switch anytime.

Don't perfectly understood: he mean softimage have not the some market share of 3dsm and Maya, but the other users (from maya and 3dsm) can switch when see XSI demo/trial? Or don't delude ourself, this never happen?

The second i think - other than that i'm not going to play to speculation game anymore ;)

And, other statement, softimage will maintain the actual (subordination?) position only if maintains some particular characteristics like ICE? So a Maya Ice (mICE) will be the end of the story?

Not touching that either

OT: "We'll always have Paris"
Do you mean Hilton? Paris Hilton using or is a softimage developer?!?

More like head of Public Relations ;)

[Kerro Perro]

I would however like to add a more positive Luceric quote from the same thread:

It's not that there is a plot to hide Softimage, it's just reflective of the small market. It was that way in the Avid days, and before that. There is nothing wrong with being a small market; Houdini, Modo, Lightwave, even discreet products, have small markets, people are happy, life goes on. Just as long as you get what you need, you're golden. Autodesk remains committed to developing Softimage, and the product is profitable. It's safe to continue to use it and add more seats. If anything the support is better in small user base -- just look at all the interaction Stephen does and the quality of the XSI mailing list.

This is pretty much how i feel about it - that is when i'm not whipped up in a frenzy from reading to much angry posts or watching too many other software's "new feature porn". Fact is i'm perfectly happy with what's running on my workstation right now and all i wanted was for that to be safe.

But that is just from my own perspective - might be very different for others...

[Nizar]

I would however like to add a more positive Luceric quote from the same thread:

It's not that there is a plot to hide Softimage, it's just reflective of the small market. It was that way in the Avid days, and before that. There is nothing wrong with being a small market; Houdini, Modo, Lightwave, even discreet products, have small markets, people are happy, life goes on. Just as long as you get what you need, you're golden. Autodesk remains committed to developing Softimage, and the product is profitable. It's safe to continue to use it and add more seats. If anything the support is better in small user base -- just look at all the interaction Stephen does and the quality of the XSI mailing list.

This is pretty much how i feel about it - that is when i'm not whipped up in a frenzy from reading to much angry posts or watching too many other software's "new feature porn". Fact is i'm perfectly happy with what's running on my workstation right now and all i wanted was for that to be safe.

But that is just from my own perspective - might be very different for others...

Yes, this is nice sentence and somewhat reassured 'us poor and susceptible softimage users

OT (again) : last night a friend of my show me few minutes of Paris Hilton reality show (only few minute, cannot watch more, or your brain can serious damaged), so to day I have the image of this stupid thing on my retina and anytime read/hear "Paris" my poor brain associate the word "Hilton". In any case, as Kerro Perro said, Paris Hilton in softiamge team can be a great solution for public relation, or porting "fresh ideas" in the development team (a bit of pink in XSI GUI can doing the difference) and she can show how great is softimage in his reality show (who make the more cute viewcube customization? the imagination is the limit...

About Casablanca, I seen it hen was child... forgotten many part, but will see again under Hirazi suggestion

[Kerro Perro]

OT (again) : last night a friend of my show me few minutes of Paris Hilton reality show (only few minute, cannot watch more, or your brain can serious damaged), so to day I have the image of this stupid thing on my retina and anytime read/hear "Paris" my poor brain associate the word "Hilton". In any case, as Kerro Perro said, Paris Hilton in softiamge team can be a great solution for public relation, or porting "fresh ideas" in the development team (a bit of pink in XSI GUI can doing the difference) and she can show how great is softimage in his reality show (who make the more cute viewcube customization? the imagination is the limit...

Lol that really made me laugh - good one

[Bellsey]

Not quite right - the fact is that he and other employees aren't allowed to share plans on limited platforms such as these > the information shared might lead to "insider trading" with knowledge that is not "publicly" known (and this is already a bit of a stretch... ) But Autodesk could make any public announcement about future plans they want as long as it's through "proper channels" i.e. mainstream media.

I'm not going to speculate as to why they don't but the point is that could if they really wanted to.

Well, even using mainstream media wouldn't make any difference, the same business rules I have mentioned previously apply. The fact is that public listed companies must be very careful what they say and how they say things, if they are to recognise revenue from the products and services they provide.

If a public company like Autodesk was to announce a full x-year product roadmap, outlining features and release dates, it will not be able to recognise any revenue from that product until it actually ships. This stops companies from making false promises on products, and then protects consumers from making purchasing decisions, based on information that could be retracted.
This isn't anything secret, auditing forms like KPMG provide public information about all this.

Hirazi is right, even under Avid, Softimage didn't dilvulge long term roadmaps. Avid is a public listed company and therefore the same rules applied.

However, saying all that, this doesn't mean we can't discuss product roadmaps, unless under certain 'controlled' conditions such as closed meetings with NDA agreements.

[Kerro Perro]

Not quite right - the fact is that he and other employees aren't allowed to share plans on limited platforms such as these > the information shared might lead to "insider trading" with knowledge that is not "publicly" known (and this is already a bit of a stretch... ) But Autodesk could make any public announcement about future plans they want as long as it's through "proper channels" i.e. mainstream media.

I'm not going to speculate as to why they don't but the point is that could if they really wanted to.

Well, even using mainstream media wouldn't make any difference, the same business rules I have mentioned previously apply. The fact is that public listed companies must be very careful what they say and how they say things, if they are to recognise revenue from the products and services they provide.

If a public company like Autodesk was to announce a full x-year product roadmap, outlining features and release dates, it will not be able to recognise any revenue from that product until it actually ships. This stops companies from making false promises on products, and then protects consumers from making purchasing decisions, based on information that could be retracted.
This isn't anything secret, auditing forms like KPMG provide public information about all this.

Hirazi is right, even under Avid, Softimage didn't dilvulge long term roadmaps. Avid is a public listed company and therefore the same rules applied.

However, saying all that, this doesn't mean we can't discuss product roadmaps, unless under certain 'controlled' conditions such as closed meetings with NDA agreements.

I'm not gonna get in to any drawn out discussion about this but again that's not quite right - companies might not be able to sell on future developments but they are totally free to anounce intentions.

Case in point: Adobe's just announced future plans for even tighter integration of After effects with "certain 3d apps" "sometime in the future" - all nice and vague but it's a statement of intent.

And i think that's what people here are driving at: not clear-cut statements of : feature x will be added at date z but: we plan to work on x and further develop y.

Also i'm not sure how to take your last sentence as it contradicts everything else you've said.

EDIT: i'm getting aggrevated again so i think i'll leave this thread for now - i don't think i'm wrong about this but on the other hand i'm done talking about this, laterz!

[Bellsey]

Not quite right - the fact is that he and other employees aren't allowed to share plans on limited platforms such as these > the information shared might lead to "insider trading" with knowledge that is not "publicly" known (and this is already a bit of a stretch... ) But Autodesk could make any public announcement about future plans they want as long as it's through "proper channels" i.e. mainstream media.

I'm not going to speculate as to why they don't but the point is that could if they really wanted to.

Well, even using mainstream media wouldn't make any difference, the same business rules I have mentioned previously apply. The fact is that public listed companies must be very careful what they say and how they say things, if they are to recognise revenue from the products and services they provide.

If a public company like Autodesk was to announce a full x-year product roadmap, outlining features and release dates, it will not be able to recognise any revenue from that product until it actually ships. This stops companies from making false promises on products, and then protects consumers from making purchasing decisions, based on information that could be retracted.
This isn't anything secret, auditing forms like KPMG provide public information about all this.

Hirazi is right, even under Avid, Softimage didn't dilvulge long term roadmaps. Avid is a public listed company and therefore the same rules applied.

However, saying all that, this doesn't mean we can't discuss product roadmaps, unless under certain 'controlled' conditions such as closed meetings with NDA agreements.

I'm not gonna get in to any drawn out discussion about this but again that's not quite right - companies might not be able to sell on future developments but they are totally free to anounce intentions.

Case in point: Adobe's just announced future plans for even tighter integration of After effects with "certain 3d apps" "sometime in the future" - all nice and vague but it's a statement of intent.

And i think that's what people here are driving at: not clear-cut statements of : feature x will be added at date z but: we plan to work on x and further develop y.

Also i'm not sure how to take your last sentence as contradicts everything else you've said.

What I have said is right, but yes, you are also correct, statements about product specific are one thing, statements about intentions are another. However, even then its a very fine line.
This was what I meant by companies being careful about what they say and how they say things.

I'm not contradicting in my last sentence. I'm saying that in public we can't discuss roadmaps, but in private meetings with NDA agreements in place, we sometimes can.

[Kerro Perro]

Ok couldn't resist checking the thread one more time - I need help i think ;)

I can you see your point of view and you can see mine - all good that.

About the "last sentence" , i misunderstood, it was the word "unless" that threw me > i think you meant to say: "this doesn't mean we can never discuss product roadmaps, for instance under certain 'controlled' conditions such as closed meetings with NDA agreements."

Now that i've gotten that bit of pedantry out of my system i shall really get back to modelling. No really this time

[luceric]

For medium to far future plans, roadmaps, it's about subscription-type revenue recognition . If it can be considered that the client buys subscription based on having heard some development intentions, then that revenue cannot be recongnized until those come fruitition. Companies with no subcription program do not have this issue and can talk about future product plans.

[Hirazi Blue]

A new frustration: I personally am truly disappointed in the so-called Singapore Team. In a time of turmoil they could have visited the user communities/forums to reach out to the user base. This might have helped to get the message across that the change of teams wasn't necessarily a bad thing. They didn't. Personally I would call this a missed opportunity to connect meaningfully to the people who actually buy the stuff you develop...

[Bellsey]

I think that's being very harsh, blimey give the poor guys a chance, eh?
Besides, Chinny was only over here in London late November last year and saw several people then. What happens now about further visits, I don't know, but I have been in contact with the Singapore guys regarding if its possible to get people over here.

[origin]

A new frustration: I personally am truly disappointed in the so-called Singapore Team. In a time of turmoil they could have visited the user communities/forums to reach out to the user base. This might have helped to get the message across that the change of teams wasn't necessarily a bad thing. They didn't. Personally I would call this a missed opportunity to connect meaningfully to the people who actually buy the stuff you develop...

Never seen any of 3ds max/maya devs over forums, so xsi was something special.

TBH I'm not surprised that Luc-Eric left, if you check how tone of his posts changed over last year you would see that something was going on ;)
But I'm abit surprised that G. Laforge left, I thought he was given 'cool' projects to work on and as far as I know devs (at least ones that left my company) all they want is interesting projects and self-development.

[j3st3r]

Actually they talked on the softimage mailing list...it was a nice move, apparently many of them are coming with strong game developer background...

Back to my biggest concerns, about bugfixes: I see many shiny new features, that are not really useful (or partially), but long reported bugs remain unattended. The famous OBJ exporter bug (no UV exported if you have user normals) are not fixed, however it seems that the exporter doesn't append another OBJ extension to the file nmae picked in a fiel dialog (like new.obj.OBJ). My problem is that it's not granted that a bug will be fixed. I'd rather download weekly or monthly patches, service packes than wait a year or a half for the next release, when we have an annoying bug...or lack of feature...like ultimapper without cage...and so on. I still love to work with Softimage, but these small things annoy me

[Hirazi Blue]

@Bellsey - I am more than willing to give the "poor guys" a chance. Please do not read stuff into my post I didn't put there! I really hope the future will still hold the possibilty of improved relations between the new team and the online communities. But that's basically besides the point here, as my post explicitly expressed the frustration I feel with the current situation, where they quite obviously failed to see the point of making themselves visible/available in a time of specific and quite obvious turmoil (i.e. the "move" from Montreal to Singapore). Personally I don't believe very much will change in this respect in the future, but I am more than willing to be proven wrong.
My frustration, to spell it out once more, was based on the current situation, which could have been handled way better, if some of the new team had gotten on the forums to "show" themselves.

@origin - "so xsi was something special", it's true, xsi in this respect always has been. But the willingness of some of the team to participate in the ongoing struggle that is forum life was part of a tradition that the new team should truly take into consideration, as the communities (xsibase & si-community) are still an important part of what keeps a product like Softimage alive IMHO.

@j3st3r - Could be that I missed something, but AFAIK there was one introductory post by Chun-Pong Yu, which was promising in itself, but (again AFAIK) hasn't seen a follow-up yet. (EDIT: technically that's incorrect. I just checked and found one more post by Chun-Pong Yu in that specific "Intro" "thread", but this doesn't really change my basic point here...) And besides the Mailing List is a different beast from the online communities and was as such not included in my "frustration".

;)

[j3st3r]

In that respect, I fully agree with you, Hirazi.

[grahamef]

To be fair, there have been several posts on the mailing list by other members of the team including those listed by Chun-Pong.