Modo 801 Release

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Greg
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Joined: 04 May 2012, 23:27

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by Greg » 29 Apr 2014, 17:45

That's a valid critique (no animation layers) but I think you can expect them soon. All the pieces are in there now, animation layers is one of the things the dev. hasn't implemented yet. Mark Brown (the main ani. dev.) created an NLA system for LW many years ago so you could probably assume it's on the schedule. Modo has Actors, Key Sets, Actions, Poses, and a very cool keyframing system with all kinds of onscreen tools (onion skinning, time tool, things like that) - the rigging and weighting is also very comprehensive. Modo definitely needs animation layers to be considered complete (and faster viewport performance for weight painting and deformation playback, IMO) - but I do a lot of animal animation in Modo for my clients and I really like it (I have Soft and Maya and choose to use Modo, it's plenty capable).

As far as the renderer, well - I'd just take a look at the gallery. Modo's renderer is one of the best and fastest raytracers out there that supports just about everything (MIS, EIS, sss, displacement, vector displacement, blobs, volumetrics, hair, fur, particles, multiple GI methods that can be mixed, mixing different shading rates on a per polygon basis....it's very powerful). The Preview renderer can also function like Octane and Maxwell - just set it to extended refinement and let it go until you like what you see (no messing around with setting specific GI or SSS samples...stuff like that). If you don't like the renderer you can use a really great (IMO) Octane implementation, or Maxwell (I have them both and they're both very usable, although I almost always render in Modo). The Previewer is by far the most comprehensive and feature complete in the business (in terms of interactivity, sampling surfaces for editing, viewing any channel or render output, isolating what you're working on, opening multiple previews to see many cameras or outputs at once, using transform tools in the Preview, so much more - it's probably the best part of the program). You have node based shading now so you can sample aspects of the scene and use the data to drive shading. The render passes are extremely powerful (you can change pretty much *anything* on a per pass basis, not just lights and materials but entire animations - any channel in the scene). It's been hard for people to grasp though and needs some better UI support for people to really 'get it'.

I think Modo is a potential long-term replacement for SI - it's not Houdini (which is a good thing for most Modo users, Modo is better at the types of things Modo people typically do than Houdini would be). However, if The Foundry wants former SI users then Modo needs to get better at FX/ICE type work. They've made enourmous progress the last few releases (nodal rigging, nodal particle system/integrated physics system, nodal shading). All of these systems are 'unified' talk to each other and use the same schematic, so it's pretty evident what their goals are. If you're in this game for the long term eventually SI users will have to move on (maybe this year, maybe in 5 years) - Modo (IMO) is a viable option.

-Greg

pcd wrote:Ok, just my two cents. Modo does not have NLA or animation layers. How to talk about character animation without animation layers or non-linear-animation? I mean Blender has this already and a 1500$(or 1600$) does not, but is advertised as a character animation tool? Regarding the renderer, well it's very good. Not sure why the guy was not able to take the best out of it(we all have our blank spots) but here is a little render i done with Modo for a CAD bottle cap i created. Image is compressed to fit the size, but you can see the quality is there(poor quality for the left cap is do to compression). The full size image is very good, picture perfect. Not sure about the interior/building stuff i only do character animation, general animation and product shots. For me the lack of animation layers and/or NLA it's a no go. Other then this i think for me XSI for as long as i can and when ready to move Houdini or Modo if improve on animation size till then..

jamination
Posts: 174
Joined: 10 Jul 2009, 19:58

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by jamination » 29 Apr 2014, 19:19

couple of questions
- can you add a bone/deformer and not have to start from scratch?
- does it have any thing like gator for transfering attributes from one object to another.
Phil Harbath
Jamination Productions

El Burritoh
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Location: Tennessee

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by El Burritoh » 29 Apr 2014, 19:30

jamination wrote:couple of questions
- can you add a bone/deformer and not have to start from scratch?
- does it have any thing like gator for transfering attributes from one object to another.
It does not have a real equivalent to GATOR. Not sure about the bone/deformer question.
-Tim Crowson
High Nerd, of the Order of Magnetic Nerds
Personal Website

Greg
Posts: 15
Joined: 04 May 2012, 23:27

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by Greg » 29 Apr 2014, 19:32

Not exactly sure what you mean by 'start from scratch' but you can add any type of deformer whenever you want. You have a setup mode for default channel values for all deformers (and everything else) and you can add and re-arrange the evaluation of deformers whenever you want. Modo's deformation system is OOO (order operations), so you can re-arrange which deformers fire first, second, etc. and you can also adjust which points get effected and by how much in a variety of ways. Point containers abstract weighing from the geometry itself (deformers are attached to point containers which can contain points from any geometry source, so you can swap out geometry or add it..whatever..to any deformer). You can also use weight maps, falloffs, selection sets...all kinds of things to 'capture' which points are to be effected by which deformers.

Modo has a vertex transfer tool but I think it kind of sucks to be honest (it does kind of suck to be honest). Modo does a great job of maintaining vmap integrity through modeling operations and you can cut, copy paste them (all UVs, weight maps, morph maps, vertex normals, hair/fur control vmaps...etc are just different types of vmaps). Modo needs a more polished 'Gator' like tool though.

-Greg
jamination wrote:couple of questions
- can you add a bone/deformer and not have to start from scratch?
- does it have any thing like gator for transfering attributes from one object to another.

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grendizer
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Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by grendizer » 29 Apr 2014, 20:33

Can you model after envelopping , like XSI's construction modes?

Greg
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Joined: 04 May 2012, 23:27

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by Greg » 29 Apr 2014, 21:23

Yes, something Modo is really good at...vertices will intelligently inherit weights (uvs, morphs, etc). You will probably have to tweak but it's no problem. Here's a quick vid I threw together if that helps.

http://youtu.be/syZdi08_Sco

-Greg
grendizer wrote:Can you model after envelopping , like XSI's construction modes?

El Burritoh
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Location: Tennessee

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by El Burritoh » 29 Apr 2014, 21:33

"YESSS! LEUENBERGER!"


Awesome vid.
-Tim Crowson
High Nerd, of the Order of Magnetic Nerds
Personal Website

Greg
Posts: 15
Joined: 04 May 2012, 23:27

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by Greg » 29 Apr 2014, 21:34

Lol, I didn't know you were 'El Burritoh' Tim. Tim's probably about the best guy around the compare Modo to Soft since he spends all day in both. : )

-Greg
El Burritoh wrote:"YESSS! LEUENBERGER!"


Awesome vid.

El Burritoh
Posts: 151
Joined: 30 Nov 2010, 18:56
Location: Tennessee

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by El Burritoh » 29 Apr 2014, 21:41

Yeah but I don't do rigging. You someone like Sergio for that. Where's Sergio? Yo Sergio!

On the topic of operator stacks.... No, Modo doesn't have operator stacks, because it's operations are not stored in self-contained operators that can be moved around. Deformers are, however, because they exist in the deformation stack that evals bottom to top like Greg showed. But currently only deformers exist in the stack.

It's really too bad because it means we can't do some things that we might do in Softimage. Say we apply an MDD (which is an operator), then add modeling operations (changing point count) on top of that... I don't know that we can do that in Modo.
-Tim Crowson
High Nerd, of the Order of Magnetic Nerds
Personal Website

amitr
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Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by amitr » 30 Apr 2014, 03:51

Mathaeus,
you talked about modo's passes ...
Modo's ability to create masks, channels and passes is much faster vs softimage passes system, and it have better connection to nuke.

Well, modo's Shader tree is faster vs softimage node base shading
Node base is not good for most tasks, which are simple. Modo have special shaders so you dont have to connect 500 nodes in the tree like in softimage. most common shader effects that softimage users have to connect nodes for, are features inside modo's shaders, you just need to turn them on by clicking ...


As for the modo's renderer code and quality, it is more advance and easy to use then arnold / 3delight / vray
The problem is most people use modo dont know how to use its full potential : \
I actually compare it's brute force with arnold and modo is faster with same \better quality.

A lot of modos users dont know how to setup enders.
Modo's renderer can use they rays in many different ways like finalrender for example, it is a very complete and deep renderer and most modo users are not even scratch its quality.

Modo can mask different shaders with different render quality like arnold dose for objects, but its not a pathtrace, the speed is just amazing.

pcd
Posts: 35
Joined: 01 Apr 2014, 06:49

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by pcd » 30 Apr 2014, 05:40

Greg wrote:That's a valid critique (no animation layers) but I think you can expect them soon. All the pieces are in there now, animation layers is one of the things the dev. hasn't implemented yet. Mark Brown (the main ani. dev.) created an NLA system for LW many years ago so you could probably assume it's on the schedule. Modo has Actors, Key Sets, Actions, Poses, and a very cool keyframing system with all kinds of onscreen tools (onion skinning, time tool, things like that) - the rigging and weighting is also very comprehensive. Modo definitely needs animation layers to be considered complete (and faster viewport performance for weight painting and deformation playback, IMO) - but I do a lot of animal animation in Modo for my clients and I really like it (I have Soft and Maya and choose to use Modo, it's plenty capable).
I think Modo is a potential long-term replacement for SI - it's not Houdini (which is a good thing for most Modo users, Modo is better at the types of things Modo people typically do than Houdini would be). However, if The Foundry wants former SI users then Modo needs to get better at FX/ICE type work. They've made enourmous progress the last few releases (nodal rigging, nodal particle system/integrated physics system, nodal shading). All of these systems are 'unified' talk to each other and use the same schematic, so it's pretty evident what their goals are. If you're in this game for the long term eventually SI users will have to move on (maybe this year, maybe in 5 years) - Modo (IMO) is a viable option.

-Greg
Hi Greg,
I will give you this, Modo has potential. But, i am in my early 40's so whatever i will choose to go with right now, it's probably be my last program to use. This is why i am so angry at Autodesk right now. Because i had my workflow and all setup. I am not afraid of learning i done university and i am used to learn, but a 3d program needs years of use because of huge complexity to learn tricks and how to get the best possible results. Market is very weak right now, so no trial and error, just best possible results. So let me look at it this way: i done a huge project in witch i needed to record(MOCAP) fitness exercises. The short long story is, that i cleaned MOCAP data then i added missing motion, corrective motion and whatever i wanted on layers(XSI ok?). Then i started to collapse everything into one single motion layer and export as fbx files(client needed final motion and renders). When things where very bad, i get past with NLA motion clips and then plot them to the bones and export to fbx. Needless to say that the only program capable of doing all this was XSI. Maya was no where near to this level of difficulty, witch surprised me a bit. Hate to disappoint you but Modo was not capable of handling such a huge and complex project either. When i start recently to investigate what could replace XSI, Houdini was the only program capable of doing all that without external plugins and an overcomplicated pipeline with more then one app. I am able to transfer motion from rig-to-rig in Houdini(procedural) or just from one bone to other bone and i still have access to the first animation to alter/tweak how i want/need. I just discovered this, and it's very powerful. Ok, it's scary, ultra complex, does not have presets and you need to build everything you want from scratch. This is a point in Modo's favor. But i prefer to layout a first rough shape of the project and then tweak it until i get what i need - houdini network approach gives me all this. Plus if i done an error at the early stages of the project i can always go back and just tweak the network node i done wrong and it will propagate down the network(it's kind of like ICE on all aspects of the program). No need to rebuild the project or to bang my head to the desk. Now this needs non-destructive workflow and to my knowledge apart from XSI only Houdini can do this. So for me at least Modo is a no go on all fronts. Maybe in few years it will catch up, i am afraid i don't have the time to wait. I need to say though that i worked with a client license of Modo 601 and the renderer is very-very good. The program itself, too slow with medium complexity scenes, and too unstable(lots of crashes) and some of the tools poorly implemented. So it was in a bad need to polish existing features and add new ones. No where near Houdini or XSI. I did not tested latest version, but from the look of it is improved.
Thanks,
C

Pancho
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Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by Pancho » 30 Apr 2014, 07:21

Good points. Especially as our overall situation seems to be very similar.

I guess that is the meanest thing AD did to all of us. Forcing thousands of users into thousands of hours learning another app without gaining ANY advantage. Just to keep up. Not to get further. Just to learn another app which's days are already counted. So in the end we are wasting 6-12 month with learning Maya or Houdini or something else which doesn't have a future in the long run. This stuff changes just too quickly nowadays. But nonetheless these things stay complex. Very complex.

I give a f... about paying 4k for a new app if it is a good one. But I'm utterly upset if somebody steals my time, like AD, and causes a major finacial disaster. As the time I need to learn this new app is totally unproductive. Learning Maya in a commercial project? No way. So the time needed for learning is a no-income time or steals your evening hours with friends or family. They know all this, but they don't give a ....

With AD several things come together: ignorance towards the customer (and thereby damage through gross negligence) and stupidity (for not taking the customers serious and not having a great vision to share -> lack of development). Both are deadly sins in a commercial relationship. And hopefully they face the consequences one day.

They are taking away my hammer and give me a screwdriver, telling me that this is for the better of the whole industry. If you repeat a lie often enough, at one point you start to believe it.

angus_davidson
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Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by angus_davidson » 30 Apr 2014, 09:06

Pretty much most of the folks I chat to fall into the current status

Continue with softimage as long as possible.

Looking to implement a Modo (for solo or small projects) or Modo / Houdini (for larger projects) when Softimage is no longer viable.

Both TheFoundry and SideFx are listening and are implementing things that Softimage users will need to move away from an Autodesk solution.

In two years time I think people will find the non AD options up to everything they need so , spending time getting into them now will not be time wasted later on.
--
Technomancer at Digital Arts
Wits University

pcd
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Joined: 01 Apr 2014, 06:49

Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by pcd » 30 Apr 2014, 09:37

angus_davidson wrote:Pretty much most of the folks I chat to fall into the current status
Continue with softimage as long as possible.
Looking to implement a Modo (for solo or small projects) or Modo / Houdini (for larger projects) when Softimage is no longer viable.
Both TheFoundry and SideFx are listening and are implementing things that Softimage users will need to move away from an Autodesk solution.
In two years time I think people will find the non AD options up to everything they need so , spending time getting into them now will not be time wasted later on.
Agree. This is what i want to do in the shortest possible term. I will try each iteration of Modo until it's catching up with my complex jobs. After i seen the last Modo 801 feature set, i think it will be very quickly. Until then i started to learn Houdini. Well, to be honest i started to look into Houdini last year in the summer. The pace i did this though was very slow, but recently i moved to a fast learning rithm. I only need to get a good grasp of the shading nodes and i will be good to go with the basic version for like 90% of my projects. From the look of it, i will change to Houdini this autumn. Modo is next into my pipeline in 1-2 years with no Autodesk anymore, for ever. Thinking of it in terms of money: Maya=4300Euros(or about 5200USD) in Europe. Modo + Houdini basic version(it does not have particles or dynamics, but it does have all other tools plus unlimited rendering nodes)=1600$+2000$=3600US$. Or even Modo + HoudiniFX(full blown with fluids/pyro you name it and they have it)=1600$+4500$=6100$. So only 900US$ more then Maya alone. To me it's looking like i win either way.

Pancho
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Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by Pancho » 30 Apr 2014, 11:08

Please don't forget the sub-fees for Houdini. They aren't quite as nice as the AD ones.

angus_davidson
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Re: Modo 801 Release

Post by angus_davidson » 30 Apr 2014, 11:33

Pancho wrote:Please don't forget the sub-fees for Houdini. They aren't quite as nice as the AD ones.
no but if you work on time = money you find you will come out ahead on houdini rather then maya
--
Technomancer at Digital Arts
Wits University