Softimage the best Autodesk tool against competition

[luceric]

Softimage either version, Foundation or not had a dreadful Mentalray render at that time.

Foundation not sold much because Mentalray at that time couldn't old a candle to Vray, Finalrender in Quality. It wasn't not just being less friendly like it is today, it was outdated in every way. It was Quality pure and simple. Softimage couldn't do an image like Vray at that time no matter what.
I wrote it bold because i remember quite well being very disappointed,

Afaik people didn't generally think that way at the time in 2004-2005. Mental Ray was world famous as the high renderer, and there you got it for free in a 450$ package. henrik van jensen's photon maps, i.e. what is in mental ray, was the top end. Mental Ray has been used on the game Riven, on the star war prequel, The Matrix and other films. Renderman doesn't didn't do any global illumination at all but no one would say it suck compared to these other solution. Hybrid, Buf and others have been using it on every film they have worked on, and ILM on every film they needed raytracing for. People using lightwave may have their own perspective

[Hirazi Blue]

I always believe there is a dark room in AD headquarters, full of screens, world maps and so. Let's say, ten screens for Adobe, five for Foundry ... and one which displays Hirazi Blue

Well, you've seen the war room from Dr Strangelove?.......... ;)

Well, I always imagined Autodesk HQ more like this:

[Letterbox]

If you have a product priced at X thousand, and then release a flavour of that same product (with much of the same functionality) for only a few hundred, there's a risk that you can kinda devalue the product, and/or change it's perception. We might not always admit it, or realise it, but many people associate a cheaper price as lower quality, which in turn can effects peoples view as to whether the product as any credible value.

Funny how that perception has completely disintegrated over the last 3 / 4 years with all the Apps the Apple/Google have.

Example of pro app - Logic 9 @ 20gb - $199 http://www.apple.com/logicpro/) ... Wav of the future, can you hear it ;)

App store growth...

Jan. 2013 - 775,000 (300,000 native to iPad)
Sept. 2012 - 700,000 (250,000 native to iPad)
June 2012 - 650,000 (225,000 native to iPad)
April 2012 - 600,000 (200,000 native to iPad
Oct. 2011 - 500,000 (140,000 native to iPad)
July 2011 - 100,000 native to iPad
June 2011 - 425,000 (90,000 native to iPad)
March 2011 - 350,000 (65,000 native to iPad)
Nov. 2010 - 400,000 (40,000 native to iPad)
Sept. 2010 - 250,000 (25,000 native to iPad)
June 2010 - 225,000 (8,500 native to iPad)
May 2010 - 200,000 (5,000 native to iPad)
April 2010 - 185,000
Jan. 2010 - 140,000
Nov. 2009 - 100,000
Sept. 2009 - 85,000
July 2009 - 65,000
June 2009 - 50,000

[Bellsey]

Very fine data, but you're talking apples and oranges.

You simply cannot compare an iOS/Android app to professional software such as Maya, Houdini, Nuke...(basically pick one).
The market is different, with a different type of user/consumer, who perhaps don't mind wasting money on an app, because its only a few cents/pence/pounds/dollars.

Also, it wasn't that long ago, that Messiah had a fire sale and you could get it for just $10. I wonder how many people got that (and many did), played with it and then never really used much further. We also didn't really see a shift in users and studios suddenly moving to that product, even though I'm sure there are people actively using it. I'm not being detrimental about that either.

[angus_davidson]

I dont think he necessarily talking about iOS aps etc.

If you have a look at what apple did with both Logic / Pro and Final Cut / Pro /studio /X

Logic Pro, well in the form of program that was to be developed into Pro when I started at Wits was nearly R9000 which at the time was about $1200 (at the time you could not get edu licences and getting the dongles to work was a biatch) It had serious hassles to get licenced, the local vendors gave darkend corners a run for their money in illumination stakes.

These days the Pro version (which is in use everywhere) $200 from the mac store. buying and installing is a no brainer.

Similarly with Final Cut Pro. They brought it out at a far cheaper price compared the Sony, Avid offerings at the time. It very quickly gained a massive market share, somewhat degraded by Apples move away from pro apps and machines of late. Still at $300 its a steal compared to Media Composer which sits at $999

There is definitely a market for a all in one pro 3D application. Maya is too pipeline orientated and Max is too at the mercy of its plugins. SI can do everything that is needed. While there is never likely to be a mac build of SI if there was and it was on the MAc App Store for say $300-$400 it would sell very well.

[Bullit]

The problem with firesales is that the product future seems at risk. The biggest investment in a 3d generalist package is not "money" it is "learning". That is why it is difficult to change people from one to another.
New users is different. But for new users to come there is need of tutorials and specially quality stuff examples they can do on their own. Stuff done only with renderfarms do not count.

Hell, XSI 3.0 and 4.0 weren't too shabby either and with GI and FG.

V4 GI was almost non usable - btw i don't see a GI tab in 5.11 -. It was slow, not reliable. Everyone was in FG with its limitations.

Afaik people didn't generally think that way at the time in 2004-2005. Mental Ray was world famous as the high renderer, and there you got it for free in a 450$ package. henrik van jensen's photon maps, i.e. what is in mental ray, was the top end.

We have to disagree. Mentalray at that time couldn't do what Vray(or Finalrender) - despised click render by Softimagers at that time - could.
We just have to look at example scenes that came from Avid itself. Where is the GI/FG wow?
Note that we are talking about 2004-2005. Finalrender appeared in 2001-2002 and Vray about one year later. Then Finalrender had a slump and Vray took over. By 2004-2005 Vray was already well established standard to make realistic images, Brazil was still around i think. Most people today still prefer Vray to Mentalray and Mentalray comparatively is much better today than in 2004-2005.
There was also very limited training for Softimage at time that the 5 DVDs tried to fight.

The render is crucial to a product because it can break it. 3ds Max wouldn't be where it is today without Vray. It lived from 2002 to what year they put Mentalray in it, 2007? practically only on scanline.

[Bullit]

While there is never likely to be a mac build of SI if there was and it was on the MAc App Store for say $300-$400 it would sell very well.

I have to disagree. Without an well thought campaign who would notice?
Ease of use trumps price value. 300-400 means nothing when the person that will use it would have to invest several months/year learning it. That is why i criticize what i perceive as unnecessary ICE complexity.
Then there is the trust people need to make that investment. Would Softimage be developed for at least 10 years in Mac? What would be the commitment? all this questions need to be addressed in a campaign to make it worthwhile for someone to go for Softimage.
There is an F-curve emotional reward, if the tools doesn't do good feedback aka results even if simple - the reason for good start settings, premade effects - at first the chances of dropping it are much bigger. Then afetr the initial reward the tool learning should improve progressively and do not have a slump.

[angus_davidson]

While there is never likely to be a mac build of SI if there was and it was on the MAc App Store for say $300-$400 it would sell very well.

I have to disagree. Without an well thought campaign who would notice?
Ease of use trumps price value. 300-400 means nothing when the person that will use it would have to invest several months/year learning it. That is why i criticize what i perceive as unnecessary ICE complexity.
Then there is the trust people need to make that investment. Would Softimage be developed for at least 10 years in Mac? What would be the commitment? all this questions need to be addressed in a campaign to make it worthwhile for someone to go for Softimage.
There is an F-curve emotional reward, if the tools doesn't do good feedback aka results even if simple - the reason for good start settings, premade effects - at first the chances of dropping it are much bigger. Then afetr the initial reward the tool learning should improve progressively and do not have a slump.

Firstly if your going to the trouble of getting a professional app on someplace like the app store you wouldn't do it without a good campaign. Not even ADSK is that dumb. Hell the marketing presence of Autodesk's Sketch app on the apple store has been better then Softimage has ever got period. I was also just using the App store as an example. It could just as well be the windows store. This is where I think we agree in that The whole point is it allows people to easily , buy, download and install , and update their product. Its not like you are trying to sell a brand new product either. Its a case of finding a new avenue to allow much broader exposure to a very solid product.

To give you a simple example. I go to the Autodesk Website. I click buy. Well I am out of luck because I cant do that directly from South Africa (and pretty much everywhere except 7 or so countries) Okay lets try resellers. Set south Africa. Set 1000km Radius. No one comes up. Well that just sucks. When there is actively a barrier to buying an item people will invariably move on.

[SpookyMunky]

I find it a bit surprising that Foundation didn't sell that well .. the only reason I use xsi I think is because of foundation / the whole price war. I had been a comfortable LW user of many years when xsi became affordable and I got forced into learning it for work. My only previous experience with softimage was with an earlier battle between xsi and maya, where they both did a free promotional package thing where they sent out slightly restricted copys / 30 day trials or something through the post, I had deemed xsi too buggy to use and maya too useless at subdivisions.. was happy to stick with lightwave

Foundation not sold much because Mentalray at that time couldn't old a candle to Vray,

Wasn't maya mainly MR aswell ?.. was Mray that bad ?, or just slow as hell for people that weren't used to editing BSP settings etc ( like me, for way too long hehe ).. it's a render engine I have probably warmed up to a lot over the years given the constant speed increase for cpus . Its kind of besides the point.. I worked on projects back then where they had pricy pipelines in place to export animated characters from maya to lightwave for rendering, it didn't slow maya's sale figures down so can't really be used as an excuse for xsi poor sales ?

The complexity of xsi argument.. I dunno, it might be why other small studios didn't pick it up when it was cheap.. its been alot of years since xsi 5.... alot of jobs heh, sadly I still feel an xsi noob.. alot of that will be me just being dumb.. some of it must be the daunting complexity inherent in an app that has had a lot of money thrown at it over the years . It didnt help that alot of the stuff in xsi 5 was undocumented...

For all of xsis faults though, the thought that went into its interface.. I have yet to see another app come close hehe.. seems dumb that no-one has ripped that off, like why can't I middle click on menus in photoshop . XSI interface team shoulda been working with M$ to design a uniform amazingness of fun .. or something. Hmm, xsi interface on screen, left hand using all keyb shortcuts, right hand on me cyborg MMO7 mouse to controll subd levels and tools that were annoying to use keyboard shortcuts with left hand hehe.. so spoiled

This latest argument that apple did well with the apps it bought ?.. what about the apps it bought purely to destroy like shake .. xsi so woulda disappeared completely if apple had their happy merry way of owning all cg apps ... ios versions.. I wont dignify that ...

If they were to market it again as a cheap alternative.. Id hope more companys like the one I was lucky to be working for bought it this time.. for me going from such a controlled buggy crazy enviroment that was 6 or 7 years or so of lightwave to an app that everything made sense and sky was the limit (until it bluescreened) was ace . Who-ever is managing cinema4d's development / marketing / whatever needs to be hired by autodesk heh.. cinema 4d I remember discoounting as an app around the same time as lw 5.5 came out ? .. has been around the block a few times.. now all of a sudden people want to buy it ?

[angus_davidson]

I
This latest argument that apple did well with the apps it bought ?.. what about the apps it bought purely to destroy like shake .. xsi so woulda disappeared completely if apple had their happy merry way of owning all cg apps ... ios versions.. I wont dignify that ...

I didnt say Apple was to buy SI. Theres no reason for them to. While I was one of the folks left very sore by shakes termination ( I was actually in the process of trying to buy licences via our reseller at the time) They killed it because it wasnt making money for them and because they wanted to gut out some of the things for FCP Studio.

I was talking about ADSK selling SI via a apple store like method, and a competitive price. With all of the ease of purchasing and upgrading that you get from their model. I get people dont like apple. But for the few things they have gotten wrong you cant fault them on making mac programs much more accessible , cheaper in general and more convenient to buy.

[SpookyMunky]

I was talking about ADSK selling SI via a apple store like method, and a competitive price. With all of the ease of purchasing and upgrading that you get from their model. I get people dont like apple. But for the few things they have gotten wrong you cant fault them on making mac programs much more accessible , cheaper in general and more convenient to buy.

I can't see it, part of me would hate to see it.. I just cant see it.. hmmm. Even with fulltime phone support from lovely people like mani heh, I found the transition kinda hard.. its just a different way of doing things compared to normal tv apps like lightwave / c4d... even max ... I don't think si has magically become less "rethink every way you would do anything in 3d" ish... if that makes sense.. to try and make it into that kind of app it wont go well ? I know I praised the si team for the interface and userfriendliness they did for xsi.. but lets face it, those guys moved on 8 odd years ago hehe...... hmm

"I get people dont like apple." .... you do know that if adobe hadnt told them to go poke themselves we would all be mac users now I guess haha.. they are as evil as evil gets.. buy up companies to make the apps mac only, force the apple view of how the whole design world should be run, with 10* overpriced cpus using linux.. that they charge for ...

For me the worst is seing people / companys that were forced into buying mac pros to use final cut for hd editing since apple had bought up every app that you could do it with and made mac only... it was only for 6months or so ?.. all of those people are now brainless apple drones.. they have been assimilated.. apple say *feed me!* they start unzipping their jeans then ask "you said feed me ?... sorry, wheres my wallet" .. then bend over..... hehe.. how can you love a company that overcharges soooo much for hardware, and charges you again for a build of a free os.. lol

[SpookyMunky]

While I was one of the folks left very sore by shakes termination ( I was actually in the process of trying to buy licences via our reseller at the time) They killed it because it wasnt making money for them and because they wanted to gut out some of the things for FCP Studio.

to shake users it felt like they had bought it just to kill it... much like what xsi users thought was going to happen when autodesk bought si heh.. turns out AD aren't as satanically evil as apple

anyways.. all besides the point I guess.. if someone you knew was thinking about starting up a 3d company.. would you suggest xsi knowing that it'll be years before he gets anywhere ?, or some app like lw / c4d that can be picked up in a few months....

Id recommend something like c4d / lw purely for the community heh.. softimage community always been so tiny, theres alot of people that talk crap and argue over the fate of softimage heh, alot of people that do amazing shit, some of the most amazing shit Iv seen .. going from lw to softimage 5.11 / whatever for me was like walking out of a crowded hotel into a giant train station and being the only person there.. If I shouted, an echo would sometimes eventually come back from somewhere down the line.. I dont think much has changed

Edit: LW for better or worse.. I find it hard to think on a single person I have known that I havent met up with for a few drinks etc.. was a community hehe

Edit2 : .. I dont think itd be that hard to change it.. its the one thing we actually have power over that autodesk cannot control.. Id be happy to leave irc open on an xsi chan and answer questions daily...Id love it.. I appreciate alot of you are too busy but blah, must be some others like me that dont care any more

[luceric]

I'd recommend something like c4d / lw purely for the community heh.. softimage community always been so tiny, theres alot of people that talk crap and argue over the fate of softimage heh, alot of people that do amazing shit, some of the most amazing shit Iv seen .. going from lw to softimage 5.11 / whatever for me was like walking out of a crowded hotel into a giant train station and being the only person there.. If I shouted, an echo would sometimes eventually come back from somewhere down the line.. I dont think much has changed

Edit: LW for better or worse.. I find it hard to think on a single person I have known that I havent met up with for a few drinks etc.. was a community hehe

yikes, I've never heard that kind of feedback about the softimage community. there are a thousand subscribers to the xsi mailing list alone, btw.

The only thing I know about the LW community is that it seemed (from the outside) like a toxic group of people flaming each other about how crap their product was, how dark the future was, or how screwed they got over with Lightwave Core. Not only having paid for Core which they didn't get, but that the app needed a re-write and now all they get is patches on top of the old

[Letterbox]

Very fine data, but you're talking apples and oranges.

You simply cannot compare an iOS/Android app to professional software such as Maya, Houdini, Nuke...(basically pick one).
The market is different, with a different type of user/consumer, who perhaps don't mind wasting money on an app, because its only a few cents/pence/pounds/dollars.

Also, it wasn't that long ago, that Messiah had a fire sale and you could get it for just $10. I wonder how many people got that (and many did), played with it and then never really used much further. We also didn't really see a shift in users and studios suddenly moving to that product, even though I'm sure there are people actively using it. I'm not being detrimental about that either.

I can understand the reasoning you say, but it's unsustainable, the latest m&e quarterly's bear that out, the ever increasing the prices, you getting a smaller and smaller market, and if your honest you can see that subs, by the voices of all users, its becoming a grudge purchase, and one that has less and less inherent value, because latest m&e quarterly's. Round and round ad do.

Your (ad) trying to be monolithic, those days are ending fast, see lagoa as a good example, as well as logic, as well as fabric etc etc. To believe that things like the apps you mentioned cant / wont run on a ipad / win tablet - in the future, is well really a blinkered vision.

I think your smarter than that, I think anyone can(should) see the potential of lagoa, that could be on the app store, and what it means for remote cg development. Same is true for fabric engine changing their business model, again a smart move. I'm sure you can see how 1 Gig internet in London changes things, when you can download a hd movie in < 1 min.

Not seeing how people now dont see value in monolithic or subs is in some ways forgetting the history of where AD started and how it got big in cad, well times have changed again... More recently how newegg, a while back decided to close all its retail outlet, and dump resellers who offer no benefit in the days of internet connectivity, who now are now #1. Does anyone even know who #2 is? (rhetorical)

Why #1? because they got there first and did it right. They saw numbers like above and realized what was coming, and unlike like poor Angus, who gets screwed over because of outdated regional sellers, those days are coming to a close too. (you only need to look at the UK high street to see retailers collapsing). Similar example Dvd's region codes, does anyone care about those anymore?

Many a company now who still hold on too tight to what was, chasing an ever declining buck, just like Hollywood and others did/do, and have forgot, or don't see the above numbers and realize only far too late...

The all important credo...Give the consumers what -they- want, before they want it.

Otherwise people like angus etc go elsewhere, where their $ is valued and accepted, and they get what they want!

And if you (ad) cant figure out how to do it, nor don't see the reasoning why customers expectations are changing, then you end up a dinosaur. That's evolution.

[Bullit]

Its not like you are trying to sell a brand new product either.

For Mac it will have been like that.
I have no disagreements about the whole reseller silliness.

Wasn't maya mainly MR aswell ?.. was Mray that bad ?, or just slow as hell for people that weren't used to editing BSP settings

I don't think there was even an GI tab at that time. GI was something of a step child.
There was reason mia material, production shaders appeared later and all those other options , matte shadow appeared only after the port to 3ds Max. Before that there were CTRL shaders hacks. At time of V4 there was no way to get to Vray level with MR if the goal is GI image.

The fact is that the big studios took much more time to get into GI than the tiny guy in the corner shop.
Sometimes the big guys drive or signal innovation, sometimes it is the tiny ones.
Vray is from Bulgaria if i am not mistaken which tells everything you need to know about reactions they would get from the industry. The kids have not that sort of preconceptions and adopted it en masse.

yikes, I've never heard that kind of feedback about the softimage community.

Agreed XSIbase was always full of people. Even if we talk about V5 time then cgtalk was too.

[Letterbox]

Regarding Apples and Oranges, ;) my thoughts on possibilities, the future, adapting, forward thinking etc...


Just look at what this small developer is doing...