What if Softimage died?

[Lord Futzi Voldemort]

no, no, we've been heard !!!! 2 Softimage video in 1 day, two https://www.facebook.com/AutodeskME
;)

You mean that video where they show what maya can do when you use softimage to do all the work?

[MauricioPC]

Does any of you guys use Softimage for Advertisement work? I mean logo, product shots, etc?

I know Maya is a pain in the *ss to make this kind of stuff. In C4D you can make in 1/5 of the time with some plugins (fast results with textures, lighting) with the GreyScaleGorilla plugins or the RenderKing plugins (it looks great).

How does Softimage handles this? If handles? In motion graphics and Tim Borgman, we know Softimage kicks ass!

I do. I use Softimage in virtually any project I'm involved in. I work for companies that use all shades of software from LW to C4d. I always have my homelicense on the Laptop and do most of the modelling there, but also mesh fixing, UVs and particle stuff. That involves CAD conversion, product shots and, if I do projects on my own, shading animation and rendering of course.
Therefore I was very exited about the send to function, which is broken in 2014, because you can use max and maya as a plugin for Si ( ;) ). I even ported complete animations from maya to SI to get rid of all the workarounds there and reshaded it in Si which made the projects twice as easy to handle.

That's good to know. I think this was one of my major concerns about SI. I know I'll have to take this jobs (there's a lot) and since you don't see much of this kind of work, I got worried.

Knowing that you use it makes me more comfortable.

You said about the Send To function, to maybe send something do Max. Is there anything in Max that you may need/want to use? Just curious. If it's because of plugins, it makes sense. FumeFX, TP and Rayfire are great.

[luceric]

But as the video on the Foundry shows, I guess the thing that most inspire them to use it was the Render and the free nodes

as we know you can do great work (and great marketing for) in any product. just like owning softimage hasn't made any of us Tim Borgmann. 3DSMax has unlimited rendering nodes btw, unlike Maya and Softimage. plus iray. Softimage has 5 nodes I think? (which should be plenty for you anyway?) max is the product design product at autodesk m&e

Now ... it's nice to know that Softimage workflow is better than a Modo one for modeling.

I hate to be negative of softimage, but it's a liiiiittle bit too easy to jump to that conclusion. People are not stupid, they use what they are most confortable with, so if you ask that question in a softimage forum, you'll get a softimage answer unless you're dealing with a self-hating user. Personally, i could never wrap my mind around the modo workflow, but softimage doesn't even have measurement units, good symmetry, and has stagnated in modeling since 2006. It just has the classic tools to make characters and props, but nothing fancy or precise (as in product design precise), not even very good symmetry. The last time we added some workflows in xsi, we looked at Max's graphite modelling tool for inspiration.

[MauricioPC]

But as the video on the Foundry shows, I guess the thing that most inspire them to use it was the Render and the free nodes

as we know you can do great work (and great marketing for) in any product. just like owning softimage hasn't made any of us Tim Borgmann. 3DSMax has unlimited rendering nodes btw, unlike Maya and Softimage. plus iray. Softimage has 5 nodes I think? (which should be plenty for you anyway?) max is the product design product at autodesk m&e

Now ... it's nice to know that Softimage workflow is better than a Modo one for modeling.

I hate to be negative of softimage, but it's a liiiiittle bit too easy to jump to that conclusion. People are not stupid, they use what they are most confortable with, so if you ask that question in a softimage forum, you'll get a softimage answer unless you're dealing with a self-hating user. Personally, i could never wrap my mind around the modo workflow, but softimage doesn't even have measurement units, good symmetry, and has stagnated in modeling since 2006. It just has the classic tools to make characters and props, but nothing fancy or precise (as in product design precise), not even very good symmetry. The last time we added some workflows in xsi, we looked at Max's graphite modelling tool for inspiration.

Thanks for your input.

[myara]

SI modeling tools haven't been updated in the last few years, but the addition of "curvature continuity" in SI 2014 was a big hit for me. That feature alone makes me hate when I have to use older SI versions because of compatibility issues in a project, which is 99% of the time. A simple tool but it speeds up a lot of my modeling work.

Modo has interesting tools but I can't get used to it but I may have to try harder when I get some free time. Modo has a few tools and features I would love to have in SI, like Bevel, Split Edges, Blend, Magnet deformers, basic sculpting and retopology tools, painting tools, etc. That's the Bevel and Split Edge tool I've always wanted. SI Bevel isn't nearly as powerful and also, completely destroy my UVs.

Maya is getting better in the last years, a little more SI like, but it is still way behind.

[Hirazi Blue]

@luceric - there is obviously a big difference between the workflow (which is very hard to pin down) and the feature set. I know other software has more on offer in its modeling feature set, for instance, but working in Softimage is just that much more pleasant. Therefore I sort of make due with the fact that some features are most definitively missing. And the one thing that keeps on coming up when discussing Softimage versus other software is exactly this workflow, although its often very hard to specify what this workflow specifically entails. Not the feature set, but the way it "all" fits together nicely. If you could market this vague concept more convincingly, Softimage would undoubtedly have more seats, IMHO.

[luceric]

SI modeling tools haven't been updated in the last few years, but the addition of "curvature continuity" in SI 2014 was a big hit for me. That feature alone makes me hate when I have to use older SI versions because of compatibility issues in a project, which is 99% of the time. A simple tool but it speeds up a lot of my modeling work.

It was actually added in 2012 SAP.
And just some background of this. The reason why Softimage has this feature is because I model a bit on the side, and after playing with Silo a bit, I looked at Max and flagged the tool to add edge loop with continuity as something to copy and told Brent to code it, along with all the other modeling enhancements in Softimage 2012 SAP (spin edge, extrude along normal, and the more unfortunate thickness operator, which I think guillaume laforge did) This is why I wrote above that we looked at max for inspiration. The one thing that pissed me off in Max are the manupulators; they are simply faster and easier to click on in Softimage. however, the selection tools in softimage are pretty much obsolete, and only exist the way they do because of their opengl implementation history. Raycast, rectangle, different behaviour in shaded or wireframe: you're choosing the implementation code path rather than the expected result. The results is tons of different tools and hotkey when all of that stuff could be simplified to just a few switches (like surround or not, backface or not, then pick the tool -rectangle, marquee, single click) and letting the software decide how to actually implement that in the current viewing mode. This causes a lot of problems to new users. Long time softimage users just learn it and forget it but that doesn't mean it's good. Softimage does have a few gems like "single select in region", and when you use the tweak tool you're restricted to raycast so you don't think about it

[Falam]

Maya is getting better in the last years, a little more SI like, but it is still way behind.

I wouldn't say it's way behind, they have made some leaps and bounds, this coming from someone who has never used Maya, until recently. When BiFrost is inserted into Maya, I think you'll see many rejoice, I'm laying my cards on the table for BiFrost, I could be wrong, if I'm not

I've said it a few times already, wait until Softimage 2015, then the jury will have spoken.

I can't say to much about Modo, the guy who started Modo left Lightwave to let it shrivel up in the corner; I'm skeptical about how far it will actually go; instead of doing a major overhaul to Lightwave, some from the Lightwave Team leave to create a new program. There are too many players in the industry; not all can survive. The programs that I'm the most skeptical about are Modo, Lightwave, Softimage, Blender. Those are the ones that rocked in industry, there are others who have followed TrueSpace, but of those four mentioned, two if not three of them will become the next TrueSpace.

I love the wonderful ICE compounds being released from the community, some you can use in production, while others you can't. Autodesk is putting the development on the community not its self; if the community can't deliver and the market is shrinking, what happens next !

If BiFrost is inserted into Maya, the same destiny could happen to Maya. When Pixar and ILM are handing tools to Autodesk for Maya, that won't stop, when Pixar is renewing $100K in licenses, it won't stop. When Autodesk is promising to fix all the bugs within Maya and clean it up as they have been doing recently, it won't stop. As I've said they may not kill off Softimage, they won't do nothing to it either.

[MauricioPC]

Having played with all software in this discussion, if I were to open a boutique vfx or something similar for work in advertisement, commercials, etc, I think the most advantageous package to buy would be the Maya Premium Suite with Softimage.

You would get Maya, Softimage, Mudbox, MotionBuilder, Matchmover and even Composite (some things are nice to do in it). If you put that against Cinema 4D + plugins (fx and such) + ZBrush (C4D modeling is sub-par in comparison with Mudbox) or Modo + another software because Modo isn't complete yet, this combo (Maya and Softimage) wins easy, financially and production ready.

Only Maya + 3ds Max could be considered a competitor, but 3ds Max has it's problems and you can't do most stuff (FX work) in Max without TP, RayFire, FumeFX (and that alone would cost one 3ds Max+). But PFlow is ready nice and you can do a lot of stuff in it and it's easy to play.


It's nice to read about Softimage users because you get the idea that with a few tweaks, Softimage could be at the top again as the best option. But even without that, it's quite capable and possibly better than Modo, C4D and Max.

[Lord Futzi Voldemort]

Having played with all software in this discussion, if I were to open a boutique vfx or something similar for work in advertisement, commercials, etc, I think the most advantageous package to buy would be the Maya Premium Suite with Softimage.

You would get Maya, Softimage, Mudbox, MotionBuilder, Matchmover and even Composite (some things are nice to do in it). If you put that against Cinema 4D + plugins (fx and such) + ZBrush (C4D modeling is sub-par in comparison with Mudbox) or Modo + another software because Modo isn't complete yet, this combo (Maya and Softimage) wins easy, financially and production ready.

Only Maya + 3ds Max could be considered a competitor, but 3ds Max has it's problems and you can't do most stuff (FX work) in Max without TP, RayFire, FumeFX (and that alone would cost one 3ds Max+). But PFlow is ready nice and you can do a lot of stuff in it and it's easy to play.


It's nice to read about Softimage users because you get the idea that with a few tweaks, Softimage could be at the top again as the best option. But even without that, it's quite capable and possibly better than Modo, C4D and Max.

I own the suite and apart from the fact that it is AD Software ( ) you can't go wrong. Although matchmover is way outdated and the only reason to use composite is pity.

That being said, has someone tried to constrain a series of objects to a path with even distribution without using a script in maya? Or edit multiple similar parameters across several objects at once in max? Try it it's fun. Or enter a calculation in maya like 90/7 in a rotation field (rotate the object 90° around the y axis and enter /=7 in the channel box for the y axis. Hint: the correct result is 12,857) The modelling toolkit in maya does not work with the snap buttons, only with the snap hotkeys. In max you have to add a modifier every time you need to edit your UV layout and you have to adjust the UV editor window to your needs every time you do that, and managing a great number of materials is pure horror. And the list goes on. And this is only about the functionality. Don't live in the illusion bugs get more attention in max or maya. Instead, new stuff is added on top of old stuff and the old issues get burried under it.

[MauricioPC]

I own the suite and apart from the fact that it is AD Software ( ) you can't go wrong. Although matchmover is way outdated and the only reason to use composite is pity.

That being said, has someone tried to constrain a series of objects to a path with even distribution without using a script in maya? Or edit multiple similar parameters across several objects at once in max? Try it it's fun. Or enter a calculation in maya like 90/7 in a rotation field (rotate the object 90° around the y axis and enter /=7 in the channel box for the y axis. Hint: the correct result is 12,857) The modelling toolkit in maya does not work with the snap buttons, only with the snap hotkeys. In max you have to add a modifier every time you need to edit your UV layout and you have to adjust the UV editor window to your needs every time you do that, and managing a great number of materials is pure horror. And the list goes on. And this is only about the functionality. Don't live in the illusion bugs get more attention in max or maya. Instead, new stuff is added on top of old stuff and the old issues get burried under it.

Thanks for the reply Futzi, it's very nice. In comparing Max with SI, I think maybe only in modeling and plugins Max beats Softimage. And Maya is very powerful at animation and FX, but good FX in Maya NEED scripting. I seen good FX in Softimage without any scripting or with very few. That's why yesterday I decided to play a little more with SI and realized that I enjoy working with SI and will ditch my student license of C4D (I had to pay for it) and only focus on Softimage as my general app.

I just need to decide who will be the companion, but it'll probably be Maya for the new features. I enjoy Max for it's plugins, but it's to expensive to purchase all the good ones.

[luceric]

Or enter a calculation in maya like 90/7 in a rotation field (rotate the object 90° around the y axis and enter /=7 in the channel box for the y axis. Hint: the correct result is 12,857)

Not sure if that's a real bug or just a bizzare design. since you entered 7 instead of 7.0, the result is an integer (surely you must have guessed that /= 7.0 would give you the floating point result). there is no other way to round values to integers, so if that behavior changed something else would have to be done to replace it. I'll ask, but anyone can log this as an small annoying thing

The modelling toolkit in maya does not work with the snap buttons, only with the snap hotkeys.

because that's a toolbar for the standard manipulator and nex's tools is a different tool with its own snapping engine (and button, and hotkeys). but in the next release of maya, all the maya and nex tools and manipulators are more unified, with various nex replacing the older stuff. the entire modeling workflow is in the middle of being updated.

[jamination]

question for those who own any of the suites, how does it work opening the 3 packages, I assume on 1 computer it would allow you to open them all simultaneously. How it would it work floating on the network, does it only allow multiplies on 1 computer? In other words, I could open any number of suite programs but it has to be on the same computer?

thanks

[myara]

It was actually added in 2012 SAP.

I see, I was confused because I've been stuck with 2011 for years until recently, and haven't touch 2012 and 2013.

however, the selection tools in softimage are pretty much obsolete, and only exist the way they do because of their opengl implementation history. Raycast, rectangle, different behaviour in shaded or wireframe: you're choosing the implementation code path rather than the expected result.

SI selection tools aren't perfect, but I feel Maya selection tools even worse, specially before NEX integration. Unless something had changed and I haven't notice because I'm using old versions. Having to toggle backface culling or using the brush to raycast selection, or toggle Camera based selection because it doesn't select backfaces when you're in wireframe mode, is one of the things that makes me model in SI even when I'm working in a Maya project.
Maya deselecting everything when changing selection modes was another awful thing that you had to live with until recently (I still have to deal with that though).

I wouldn't say it's way behind, they have made some leaps and bounds, this coming from someone who has never used Maya, until recently. When BiFrost is inserted into Maya, I think you'll see many rejoice, I'm laying my cards on the table for BiFrost, I could be wrong, if I'm not

I was talking about the modeling workflow with default tools. I don't think Bifrost will improve modeling directly just like ICE didn't with SI.

[Bellsey]

SI selection tools aren't perfect, but I feel Maya selection tools even worse, specially before NEX integration. Unless something had changed and I haven't notice because I'm using old versions. Having to toggle backface culling or using the brush to raycast selection, or toggle Camera based selection because it doesn't select backfaces when you're in wireframe mode, is one of the things that makes me model in SI even when I'm working in a Maya project.

Some of the selection methods and behaviour was actually conformed a couple versions back. The behaviour for certain things, for example edge/poly loops is the same for Maya and Soft (can't speak for Max).

Backface culling is a common on that catches people out, expecially if jumping between packages. Very often though, it comes down to some of the preferences. And Maya has a lot of preferences that you can set to change the behaviour of certain tools.

The modelling toolkit in maya does not work with the snap buttons, only with the snap hotkeys.

because that's a toolbar for the standard manipulator and nex's tools is a different tool with its own snapping engine (and button, and hotkeys). but in the next release of maya, all the maya and nex tools and manipulators are more unified, with various nex replacing the older stuff. the entire modeling workflow is in the middle of being updated.

The standard move tool has several different settings: object, world, local and normal. If only using the snap buttons, then you can only snap in World mode. Use the hotkeys and it snaps in any mode.

I agree though, the complete unifications isn't quite there yet, but that was the same if you had used the NEX plugin in the past. The 2014 release was just the start, there's already been improvements made for the Extension release, and more to come.

[xsisupport]

question for those who own any of the suites, how does it work opening the 3 packages, I assume on 1 computer it would allow you to open them all simultaneously. How it would it work floating on the network, does it only allow multiplies on 1 computer? In other words, I could open any number of suite programs but it has to be on the same computer?

thanks

On the same computer, the products in a suite will share the same suite license.

Like regular product network licenses, a single suite license cannot be used on multiple machines at the same time.