Bitter sweet Siggraph

[Bullit]

That is a valid argument but also reinforces the point.

[MauricioPC]

I think Max can still live long with only the plugins, to be honest. Say what you will, but even BiFrost won't provide the power that a combination of Stoke, Frost and Krakatoa can generate for the particle and simulation work. Put together tP (which can be as good or even better than Houdini) and you have a workhouse of FX with a far less demanding learning curve.

Problem is ... Max feels heavy. Damn ... just watch the presentations of Siggraph about Max, there's some lag for some operations, the program takes forever to load, etc. So ... I wish we could hear Eddie saying something like what was said at the Maya Vision Series ... that performance is a major factor and that Max is being optimized for that. Because on the end of the day, a faster program will help you get work done faster.

In any case, it's nice to have something like Eddie, always talking to users and taking the heat. Softimage didn't have someone like Eddie as far as I can remember.

[Bullit]

While ago i tried to import Realflow particles to Max via ParticleFlow it was a disaster. Unworkable.
Importing to Softimage and i could play in realtime.

The problem with Frost, Stoke etc is that you are doubling the investment. You get a Max seat that are near 8000 Euros with all plugins.

[MauricioPC]

While ago i tried to import Realflow particles to Max via ParticleFlow it was a disaster. Unworkable.
Importing to Softimage and i could play in realtime.

The problem with Frost, Stoke etc is that you are doubling the investment. You get a Max seat that are near 8000 Euros with all plugins.

You are correct I guess. The other day Brandon Young (for those who don't know him, a fantastic FX artist from Blur Studio) was complaining how expensive 3ds Max is for a single artists. Currently he's working with Anselm V. Seherr-Thoss on Anselm company and he was making some calculations as to how much a FX 3ds Max rig costs for a single license.

Since SIGGRAPH is right around the corner, i did some math while waiting on some sims, and my jaw kinda dropped how much the real (rough) cost of 3dsmax really is (for one person )
perpetual license of 3ds Max 2015 with the maintenance ( subscription costs $4,300.
Vray 1040 ( one fucking node locked license)
TP 2376.00 includes fumefx
Krakatoa 1575 ( 1 work station and 2 rendering licenses)
+1075 maintenance
Frost 495
+125 maintenance
Deadline 185 (per node)
45 +maintenance ( im guessing per node)
Xmesh 495 per node
+99 maintenance
rayfire $385
total
$10080
granted i made this list geared toward more VFX.. you could slim this down say with archvis etc.. in any case with the headaches of upgrading max each and every release, and passing out plugins with new versions you can make that number go up with time wasted on trying to figure out why which plugin isnt working with one another. thoughts?

The discussion was cool with lots of FX artists from lots of companies (ILM, Sony, Scanline, etc) giving opinions. The general consensus was that Houdini, while a nice alternative, can't get the job done as fast as a 3ds Max user can (some examples were shared). Anyway... I think that's the power of Max and that is the power of Softimage. Single guy operations can produce amazing results. Max with Plugins, Softimage with Mootz!

[Bullit]

I doubt that with all that Max options you can be fast and more complete than Houdini which is much cheaper compared to 10000.
If you have to know Rayfire,Stoke,TP etc instead the logic of Houdini, i doubt that Houdini is more complex.
Also i like where Cinema4D is heading always with ease of use in sight and in 2 years much better stuff will be around with Fabric Engine. Heck every upgrade of Blender is worthwhile.
I don't find that value for Max. In Europe is 3900+700 or so for maintenance so it is much more expensive than 4300 dollars.

[MauricioPC]

This whole price difference is a *****. US4300 is not equal to EUR4300, but companies try to play this smart.

As for Max, what I read was the opinions of people working with it. I don't know much about Houdini yet, just starting playing with it. But these opinions that I got was from some very good FX artists, so I take that into consideration.


I guess we kind of derailed the whole point of the thread that was more about Softimage. Sorry Eric.

[luceric]

I doubt that with all that Max options you can be fast and more complete than Houdini which is much cheaper compared to 10000.
If you have to know Rayfire,Stoke,TP etc instead the logic of Houdini, i doubt that Houdini is more complex.

There is a huge difference between an artist-driven tool like Rayfire and having to construct your own setup in Houdini or any other app including Softimage. There are all sorts of caching workflows questions, etc. These broad non fact-based statements do not help making an informed debate.

[Bullit]

After we have the setup done it should be easier for next situations.

[MauricioPC]

After we have the setup done it should be easier for next situations.

I thought of something similar ... that the Houdini digital assets could become black-boxes/compounds for later use, improving how quickly you can get results with Houdini.

I got this answer.

that's not true. A setup someone made months prior that took them god knows how long worked pretty well on some shots I had at Sony last year. It made vines wiggle. Yeah...vines wiggle. If you're lucky, you get a month or two of some RD time before a project and you can set shit up then and sort of plan your attack. Now thats all out the window. You can do your best to make setups to propagate things for yourself in the crunch and I think most of us do. I tend to do it on a low level because you're always going to have some sup that wants to give you some whack ball notes that break your setup anyway.

Anyway ... the main point was the in the crunch, for fast turn around, Max delivered. He said he loves Houdini and with time to develop, it's better, but with a small deadline, can be trouble.

Also to keep in mind he's talking about FX on some blockbuster thing, different from the generalist, that may have more or less time.

[Mathaeus]

Also to keep in mind he's talking about FX on some blockbuster thing, different from the generalist, that may have more or less time.

Yeah he worked on blockbuster. One day if you'll want to put the theory down to reality, I think the best way is to run a couple of small mock ups of real projects, common to category where you'll be working. Then, to find which tool fits best to you and your budget. Forget the internet...
In reality, mostly I've been using ICE for a bit more complex mograph for TV commercials, things like stylized growing plants and so. Always it was more than enough time for setup, also for revisions later, it was only ICE, 'free' setup, able to keep the work to be (close to) elegant.
On another side, main problem was a standard SI Achilles heel: renderer. Some stuff simply didn't worked, like shifting of animation on instances, relying on MR stand-ins. Some was totally annoying, like extra work on motion blur on un simulated ICE tree, MR render times when it comes to complex hair structures. 3delight added support for strands around 2010, I think - two years later. Arnold was not affordable, V-ray was a future. That is, what I have in mind from early, heroic ICE days, it was mainly unpleasant "see me in viewport but not in render".

Houdini, today, has an obvious advantage of having the in-house renderer, so at least should be easy to know what to expect. Also, expected c4d connection, which is founded by Maxon I believe, this is a really new moment, unknown for SI-ICE. But who knows what other stones are on the road

[dwigfor]

All in all a great Siggraph

Congrats on your first Siggraph talk!

And for those, like me, that were wondering where Mark Shoennagel was, here it is!

Wow, great find! Thanks for posting that. Made my day!

[Bullit]

After we have the setup done it should be easier for next situations.

I thought of something similar ... that the Houdini digital assets could become black-boxes/compounds for later use, improving how quickly you can get results with Houdini.

I got this answer.

that's not true. A setup someone made months prior that took them god knows how long worked pretty well on some shots I had at Sony last year. It made vines wiggle. Yeah...vines wiggle. If you're lucky, you get a month or two of some RD time before a project and you can set shit up then and sort of plan your attack. Now thats all out the window. You can do your best to make setups to propagate things for yourself in the crunch and I think most of us do. I tend to do it on a low level because you're always going to have some sup that wants to give you some whack ball notes that break your setup anyway.

Anyway ... the main point was the in the crunch, for fast turn around, Max delivered. He said he loves Houdini and with time to develop, it's better, but with a small deadline, can be trouble.

Also to keep in mind he's talking about FX on some blockbuster thing, different from the generalist, that may have more or less time.

Thanks for feedback Mauricio. But note that is a second hand source. There is also the knowledge achieved by the person that did it.

[MauricioPC]

Thanks for feedback Mauricio. But note that is a second hand source. There is also the knowledge achieved by the person that did it.

No problem. The cool thing about the internet is that you are able to talk and understand more about the work, pipelines, workflows, etc, with the real pros.

I know some stuff, but not even close to what theses guys know. Anyway ... I need to talk less and study more.

[angus_davidson]

Thanks for feedback Mauricio. But note that is a second hand source. There is also the knowledge achieved by the person that did it.

No problem. The cool thing about the internet is that you are able to talk and understand more about the work, pipelines, workflows, etc, with the real pros.

I know some stuff, but not even close to what theses guys know. Anyway ... I need to talk less and study more.

Asking questions / talking is one of the pathways to knowledge. you can often get more value from a 10 minute chat then you can get from an hour hitting the books.