A more open + crowd funded extra, community driven Softimage

[McNistor]

Luceric. What is your motive for coming in here talking to Softimage users?
To show us the light that is Maya?

I care very much about Softimage users, and what is being talked about. I've gotten to know many people through the years, and the softimage community is important to me. I'm going through a transition to maya, with a dozen of my colleagues, as some users have been through. We didn't "quit" softimage. Some people are not going to continue with Autodesk, and that's fine, but for those that will, there are a couple of sympathetic softimage UI people leading up the Maya UI team. My interest is making life better for creative people, wherever they may be.

Well that's nice of you and I'm not being sarcastic here, but as you already can see there are some unintended (by you) consequences and what you're doing is not very different than twisting the knife.
In my previous message I wanted to add "Would it be because of Autodesk's marketing of XSI which is not geared towards adding to the XSI's user base?" or something along those lines, but I didn't want to influence your answer which I anticipated.
Of course studios will have troubles finding Softimage users when XSI, since the acquisition, was practically a footnote at best on every Max and Maya page.
I said earlier (on another bigger forum) and I will say it again: whoever decides to stay with Autodesk (go to Maya or other) if and when they'll officially discontinue this amazing s/w, is a brain-dead moron. Yes, life is not simple and yes not everyone has the luxury to stand on a high ground of principles and yes, I'm on a high horse. My opinion remains the same.

[Daniel Brassard]

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York;
And all the clouds that lour'd upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

BDM

[Eugen]

http://www.maxunderground.com/archives/ ... lberg.html

I think this hasn't been posted here.
Mr. Perlberg's words have to be followed by deeds first, of course, but I find what he says is encouraging (scroll down to his post).
The guy says he has a max logo tattoo... .°o

When was the last time we heard the likes from the Softimage management? (not just about Mr. Mogk having any tattoos...)


Luc-Eric, to warm up the SDK debate once again: is it now technically possible to properly expose the scene graph? Full complexity and access... what could that dev time cost?
I still believe if Softimage is supposed to have any bright or at least clear future, that has to be tackled some time soon.

[MauricioPC]

I think Luc-Eric was very clear ... from what you get in his posts. There's no sense for AD to develop anything for Softimage (unless a studio/client demands and pay for it), because they can simply switch to Maya.

Of course the client may be pissed and decide to go to Houdini or Cinema 4D or Modo. But only that if it used Softimage for certain things. How can you animate properly in Houdini, Modo or Cinema 4D? Actually you can't. So in the animation department, it makes sense to go to Maya. VFX is an open land and Houdini is a powerhouse. But you don't have access in Houdini to Thinking Particles, Fume FX, Krakatoa and some other amazing plugins. So maybe a 3ds Max/Maya for VFX is not bad and it doesn't matter if your are pissed that Softimage was killed. You would probably be fast and more precise working with AD products and plugins than on a competitor.

Attacking Luc-Eric because he's now working in Maya is dumb. I for one, generally don't like his answers, but I guess in this thread he's was quite clear about why he likes Softimage, why he goes to work and why he 'believes' in Maya. If the people that designed Softimage are now involved in Maya, one can only hope Maya will improve a lot. No software last forever ... that's just life.

It's not because he worked 14 years in Softimage that he now must commit 'seppuku' because Softimage is dying. Work is just ... work.

Anyway ... that doesn't change the fact that this community is the only one I like to input and talk to people, even though I'm week after week learning Maya and not Softimage.


I just wish when the time comes, that the community continues. Or is changes the name to SI-Maya-community.com.

--- EDIT ---

In addition, I concur that the new 3ds Max PM has to make things and not talk only. The cool thing about 3ds Max is the abundance of tutorials. I have tutorials from 3D-Palace (great for modeling), I have tutorials from Allan Mckay, from Anselm. So vast knowledge about VFX and so great plugins.

And despite the problems 3ds Max has, there some things I find more organized than in Maya (I see a lot of VFX training tutorials from Max - there's so much out there).

[Eugen]

I didn't attack him, if you mean that. I value the opportunity to speak with someone from the original developer team highly!
That's why it's so depressing what he says about Softimage's chances - because he should know.

Simply switch to Maya?
I did look into it that Enigma every now and then since it exists, but for whatever reason, I just can't wrap my head around the (deeper) concepts. Everytime I try, things just don't make any real sense... I guess I'm simply too stupid for that software. It's unbelievably counter-intuitive, at least for me.
Maybe I could learn it, but the effort would be considerable, and it would mean a serious drawback in work speed. But who cares about that...
I share your hopes, though, (a little) that the Softies that are working for Maya now will actually straighten out much of the nonsense, but it's not that simple, of course, because the architecture (DAG etc.) won't be changed anymore, and that's where I have most problems with.
e.g. what does that mean if nodes (in the hypergraph) loop into themselves?? How can you ever get a good 'feeling' for what the software does behind your back, if a central concept like this is unclear?

For various reasons, I'm interested in parametric modeling, and that requires that you clearly understand the logic of your operator graph/stack, whatever.
3ds max modifier stack - nice, simple, powerful (although there are some quirks as well), almost unbreakable.
Softimage operator stack - more flexible, but also somewhat more complex - yet I'm basically fine with the concept. If I try to do something nasty (e.g. moving ops), it will simply be blocked.
Maya dependency graph - what am I looking at here?? How do I re-arrange anything if needed? Will I break the scene if I do this or that? Am I supposed to touch that node anyway?

All in all, it's not an easy thing to transition to Maya. God forbid, but I think I'd sooner go back to max... depending on what will now happen in that camp.

I almost forgot: we are supposed to buy the suites! Best of all three worlds... as if it's that simple.


Softimage is so close to being the perfect allround 3d application... well balanced between flexibility and ease of use, but the fact that the SDK still does not allow (coders) for full scene graph manipulation was a cardinal mistake. If it was wide open from the start, or at least opened up just when Autodesk bought SI 5 years ago, we would probably have more top-notch plugins, and could look into a brighter future now.
Or am I just overestimating the importance of this?

[sonictk]

I'm a novice and still a student, but I just popped in to say...

I started with 3ds max 6, then switched to XSI mod tool when it was first released, liked it a lot.

In the last few years due to school, I've been working with Maya and now, having experience with all 3, I still like XSI for modeling toolsets and its ability to do a lot of things in a simple manner using ICE and even its animation/rigging toolset for someone who isn't a dedicated TD/programmer, especially with GEAR. It's still my first choice when I want to model something or uvmap something or even whip out quick animation tests.

But Maya and 3ds max have their own interesting points too. I know I'll probably be slammed, but there are a lot of things that you can do in Maya that you cannot do as easily in XSI right now with the help of scripts/tools around that people have written (pose space deformation using poseReaders, hyperRealMeshConstraints etc.) It's just the way it is...

In the end, though, it comes down to what project requirements are...if I need some specific feature in Maya then of course I would probably do stuff in Maya. But if not then I would probably use XSI for everything since it's more full-featured out of the box.

So I just wanted to say...I kind of feel sometimes people are a bit too hostile to "maya users" or something here, it's not like maya users don't like XSI...Maya has some cool things that XSI doesn't have (or stole, NEX toolkit? ), just like how XSI has a lot of cool things that Maya doesn't have (the day I can have a particle system in Maya that isn't super-confusing and is actually as flexible as ICE would be nice), but I do agree Autodesk should focus on making both software apps as great as they can possibly be for their userbase. And if there's so much hostility going around, I don't think that's going to happen. Besides, I don't even think most people know about XSI anymore. I am the only person in my entire school using XSI, apparently.

Also, because the development team is now based in my home country, I also hope XSI keeps going

[Hirazi Blue]

We are still an "unofficial Softimage community", despite what gonebadfx (I hope) jokingly suggests,
so let us please focus on Softimage and not so much on other software.
Oh and please, please don't feed the troll...

[luceric]

right, sorry if I did something to derail the thread, I thought my reply about the japan game companies could be insightful.
This thread should definitely not turn into a discussion about the "M"s. it was about whether the future of Softimage development should be based on charity donations. ;)

[MauricioPC]

I didn't attack him, if you mean that. I value the opportunity to speak with someone from the original developer team highly!
That's why it's so depressing what he says about Softimage's chances - because he should know.

I was talking about the other guy who said this: "Luceric. What is your motive for coming in here talking to Softimage users? To show us the light that is Maya?"

I too think Maya is something 'strange'. I subscribed to Digital Tutors for one month to try it out some software. I've made the intros to Max, Maya, Softimage and Cinema 4D. The one I liked the most was Softimage. I thought it was so easy to play with, but at the same time, there's no jobs in here with Softimage (if there's, it's very very few). The one I disliked or thought it was more difficult to get things done was in Maya. So I'm in the same boat as you, but then again, all jobs (the most of) here are Maya jobs.

We are still an "unofficial Softimage community", despite what gonebadfx (I hope) jokingly suggests, so let us please focus on Softimage and not so much on other software. Oh and please, please don't feed the troll...

It was just a joke. I do like this forum because generally speaking, the conversations and discussions are nice. EDIT: Sorry HB!

right, sorry if I did something to derail the thread, I thought my reply about the japan game companies could be insightful.
This thread should definitely not turn into a discussion about the "M"s. it was about whether the future of Softimage development should be based on charity donations. ;)

I for one did really liked your input on this. It's always nice to hear from the 'inside', from people who actually know how things are doing. But something makes me wonder ... if Blur Studio still uses Softimage (and only for animation) and not Maya, there must be a reason. Because they produce some of the best work in the industry. Hell, their intro on the Thor movie was better that all of the other VFX in it.

And I don't have anything against Maya or any other software. I just find some easier and more fun than others.

As for the crowd funding thing, I don't think any 'serious' company would be interested in it. They would be releasing some control of the product and it's hard for companies, specially companies in the stock trade to do such a thing. It's more easy to hope and support the current 3rd party developers and hope some new ones appears to.

[McNistor]

I for one wish Maya would know how to do a better bevel or when you input a number in a channel box, the damn cursor would just disappear so I can tackle the next shortcut without having to click in the viewport to deactivate the box.
There are a million annoying things like these in Maya and another billion probably that are deeper but I wouldn't know about them because I never used Maya for big projects.

Softimage users are not stubborn to use Maya because it's a sticker Maya on it but because it's riddled with what in Softimage we'd call bugs and the overall workflow seems dated, unintuitive and not straight-forward. And it's owned by Autodesk and that on its own is a minus.

[Hirazi Blue]

Not fueling the flame goes both ways, as far as I am concerned!

[McNistor]

@luceric
So what was that you wanted to tell me but changed your mind for some reason? I can assure you, I can take it whatever it is, good or bad.

[Hirazi Blue]

Not fueling the flame goes both ways, as far as I am concerned!

Too subtle, apparently...

[McNistor]

No, it's just that what I'm trying to clarify here is just that: clarifying.
luceric sent me a PM which he removed (a weird feature if you ask me - it's like going onto someone's email account and delete your sent mail because you changed your mind) and I was curios about what did he tell me in that PM.
Perhaps I should've asked him on PM, but this doesn't mean I'm trying to fuel the flame here and to this end, I'll ask luceric to send me on PM whatever he has to say if he chooses to respond to my request.

[Letterbox]

Avid could have pumped a lot of resources in XSI to preserve these accounts on XSI, but Autodesk has nothing to lose with them moving to Maya, it simplifies everything.

Please stop using the excuse that Avid is to blame, it's like a wife who blames her husband 7-8 years after the divorce. You know it's time to move on.

As you have said ICE was build in 3 years, Autodesk have owned softimage for more than 3 years, so what's the excuse of a incomplete sdk again? Avid? Quality of Staff? I think not.

To the OP:
When Autodesk took possession of XSI there was a 'perfect storm' of interest, ICE and it's potential was in the media every day, vimeo's were constantly being shown of what it could do, even the 'blaupunkt' video extolled the virtues of ICE, there were videos, there was FaceRobot, there were students interested, there were professionals interested, there was the mod tool, there was xsibase.

That opportunity to capitalize on that 'perfect storm' of interest was clearly missed, or not just wanted, and voices of users were constantly not listen to, how many times did people say... 'where's the marketing?'.

You talk of crowd funding but you unfortunately doesn't realize that the 'perfect storm' is GONE. Most if not all of those points above are GONE. Invariably they won't magically appear again just because of this thread, not matter how much one wishes it so. They may appear, if and only if, Autodesk seriously invest in the 'their' product, and until they do, users wont. That's true of any product, no matter how much users want it to continue.

So the best one can individually do is invest in products (and so people) that have shown and continue support Softimage, because in reality, those ARE CROWD FUNDED.

Avid could have pumped a lot of resources in XSI to preserve these accounts on XSI, but Autodesk has nothing to lose with them moving to Maya, it simplifies everything.

For whom? For artists? For choice? Or for $?

[luceric]

Avid could have pumped a lot of resources in XSI to preserve these accounts on XSI, but Autodesk has nothing to lose with them moving to Maya, it simplifies everything.

Please stop using the excuse that Avid is to blame, it's like a wife who blames her husband 7-8 years after the divorce. You know it's time to move on.

That quote has nothing to do with blaming Avid for past actions, the first part of the sentence is what common sense says Avid would be doing if it still owned the product today to retain the accounts. Context is everything