Some news from Siggraph

News concerning 3D DCC business
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owei
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by owei » 26 Jul 2013, 17:03

Bellsey wrote: People don't like us whatever we do, so it really doesn't matter if we say anything or not. :)
Dear Bellsey, that is not true. People pay for their software and expect at least some communication and PR from the software vendor concerning their software. I guess, that is not an overscrewed expectation, isn´t it..
The "new beginning", that was made in January with the usermeeting in London made a good hope for me, but this "fresh wind" seems to be blown away or just extinguished by ADs rules. I don´t know. People just want to get informed. Once again, the communication skills of AD are really, really poor. No matter what the cause is for that. We don´t hold it against you or anybody employed by AD...In my eyes, AD could do so much better... Soft users are just frustrated, can´t you understand that?

cheers,
oli

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Hirazi Blue » 26 Jul 2013, 17:05

Bellsey wrote:People don't like us whatever we do, so it really doesn't matter if we say anything or not.
Sorry, Bellsey, but you know that isn´t true!
The way Autodesk employees generally (have to?) handle these affairs is the real reason people "don't like" them. Don't turn this around to make this about the mean old user once again.
By which I don't mean to say you shouldn't be upset personally,
if you feel you're being treated unjustly BTW.
;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

Bellsey
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Bellsey » 26 Jul 2013, 17:15

woah there guys, lets put the guns down, I'm just kidding. I know the heat that come from being in the kitchen and I accept that.
I'm not singling anyone out, but you know, we're dammed if we and dammed if don't, so I realise it's pretty hard to keep everyone happy.

Oli, as for the meeting back in January. To the best of my knowledge, what was said back then, still applies now. And since then, Stefan has been to the UK to follow up and meet with various people.

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owei
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by owei » 26 Jul 2013, 17:22

...no guns up here, just wanted to make it clear ;)

OK..we will wait and see if something´s going on behind the curtain... ;)

cheers,
oli

luceric
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by luceric » 26 Jul 2013, 17:31

what? I thought good PR just meant saying "I wouldn't read too much into that" every once in a while?

Just kidding :P

Bellsey
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Bellsey » 26 Jul 2013, 17:34

yeah, well I wouldn't read too much into that., :)


Sorry couldn't resist, lol

vrMan
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by vrMan » 26 Jul 2013, 20:31

brudney wrote:
vrMan wrote:
as i said before , naiad is a node based software so its need a graph editor , graph editor in Maya is too messy , not user friendly as ICE , if they import all Naiad nodes inside ice i don`t need any other nodes in ice . i need a good UI for create Naiad graph.
Have you seen Maya's Node Editor? It's pretty nice to work with already. Not as elegant as ICE yet, but definitely more than usable. I would imagine it getting better and better, especially since ex-xsi devs are on maya team now.
yes i saw that , i said its messy , i like ice because is simple & clean but perfect , ice have visual debug system , so u can see everything in viewport . i cant found something like that in maya .
if AD forced me to leave XSI and go to Maya then i will choose another software from another company , i will move to Modo. because i started with 3dsmax later i moved to xsi , after 2 years learning now AD killed that too ...

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Bellsey » 26 Jul 2013, 22:58

hang on a minute, you're not making a fair comparison. You're comparing ICE to the Node Editor in Maya. These are two different things.
The correct comparison (if you're looking to do that) should be the Rendertree/IceTree View to Maya's Node Editor.

The Node Editor in Maya is actually very good, and has come on leaps and bounds since it was first implemented into Maya 2013, Maya 2014 had a lot of improvements. There are some thing that it can't do compared to Softs views, but it can also do some things that Soft's views can't. In Maya's Node Editor, I can hit Tab and type to filter for a node, I can't do that in Soft.

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Maximus
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Maximus » 26 Jul 2013, 23:28

Bellsey wrote:hang on a minute, you're not making a fair comparison. You're comparing ICE to the Node Editor in Maya. These are two different things.
The correct comparison (if you're looking to do that) should be the Rendertree/IceTree View to Maya's Node Editor.

The Node Editor in Maya is actually very good, and has come on leaps and bounds since it was first implemented into Maya 2013, Maya 2014 had a lot of improvements. There are some thing that it can't do compared to Softs views, but it can also do some things that Soft's views can't. In Maya's Node Editor, I can hit Tab and type to filter for a node, I can't do that in Soft.
The node editor in Maya is actually good i agree, the problem is the other 99% of the software that is a pile of disorganized mess :)

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by luceric » 27 Jul 2013, 00:54

Bellsey wrote:hang on a minute, you're not making a fair comparison. You're comparing ICE to the Node Editor in Maya. These are two different things.
The correct comparison (if you're looking to do that) should be the Rendertree/IceTree View to Maya's Node Editor.
Actually, there is nothing in XSI that is equivalent to the Maya Node Editor. The renderer tree in XSI is equivalent to Hypershade.

The Maya node editor shows all the connections in the Maya scene procedural graph. It's kind of a scene debugger. you cannot see any of that data in XSI, even though it does exist. There is simply no node editor to view it. In XSI you only see a simplified stack view of the scene data in the Scene Explorer (where you can only reorder operators as thought there were in a stack), or the transform hierarchy of 3D objects in the Schematic View.

You cannot reconnect operators (for example, a move point or a bevel) graphically in XSI, everything is hidden; you can only edit graphically something built in ICE. In Maya you can do it all, and for viewing vertices, particles, and property maps, you go to the Component Editor, which for sure is not as elegant as visual debugging in ice.

So obviously an ICE graph is going to look visually cleaner, because it's a small subset of the data that's been created and layed out on screen by hand.

I wish I had the XSI architecture doc handy, because you'd see that if you had a graph of a single 3D object, you'd have a group of about dozens nodes probably up to a hundred connections going left and right. There are a few dozen connections just for the kinestate afaik, that's why all of it is hidden. (Kinestate is made of two transforms plus a pose constrain) A move point has got 3 or 5 connections and hidden clusters ( you should be able to see those in the SDK Explorer in text form)

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by AlexanderM » 27 Jul 2013, 02:04

An example of a hidden...
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Eugen » 27 Jul 2013, 08:03

luceric wrote: I wish I had the XSI architecture doc handy, because you'd see that if you had a graph of a single 3D object, you'd have a group of about dozens nodes probably up to a hundred connections going left and right. There are a few dozen connections just for the kinestate afaik, that's why all of it is hidden. (Kinestate is made of two transforms plus a pose constrain) A move point has got 3 or 5 connections and hidden clusters ( you should be able to see those in the SDK Explorer in text form)

Very interesting!
Could you upload that XSI architecture doc for us, please? ;)

There have been discussions in the past years whether a "Hypergraph"-like node editor should be developed, or the Schematic View extended, but it never happened.
For the best, maybe. You don't mess with the node spaghetti...

Yet it could be enough to enhance the operator stack in the explorer with a few more features.
We still cannot insert a new operator somewhere in the middle of the stack and see the end result "live", like in ICE (or 3ds Max, which can do this since it's beginnings).

It's one of Softimage's biggest disadvantages not being able to reconnect established operator ports. Would this at least theoretically be possible? There are dynamic ports, after all.
A bit of the "ICE magic" transferred to the operator graph, so to speak.


Softimage, sadly, is the most "hermetic" application of them all in a way. For now, it remains impossible to add custom operators with equal rights as the factory ones. Max and Maya's customization possibilities go much much deeper.
Still after years of requests, almost no efforts are made to for example enhance the operator SDK.
I left 3ds Max once because development stalled, at least where it counts. I see the same thing happening here now, too.

Anything is possible, though, it's only a question of will. If Autodesk would fully focus on Softimage's customizability and support external developers wherever they can, the story could continue happily for many years.

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by keeper » 27 Jul 2013, 08:19

Eugen wrote:
luceric wrote: I wish I had the XSI architecture doc handy, because you'd see that if you had a graph of a single 3D object, you'd have a group of about dozens nodes probably up to a hundred connections going left and right. There are a few dozen connections just for the kinestate afaik, that's why all of it is hidden. (Kinestate is made of two transforms plus a pose constrain) A move point has got 3 or 5 connections and hidden clusters ( you should be able to see those in the SDK Explorer in text form)

Very interesting!
Could you upload that XSI architecture doc for us, please? ;)

There have been discussions in the past years whether a "Hypergraph"-like node editor should be developed, or the Schematic View extended, but it never happened.
For the best, maybe. You don't mess with the node spaghetti...

Yet it could be enough to enhance the operator stack in the explorer with a few more features.
We still cannot insert a new operator somewhere in the middle of the stack and see the end result "live", like in ICE (or 3ds Max, which can do this since it's beginnings).

It's one of Softimage's biggest disadvantages not being able to reconnect established operator ports. Would this at least theoretically be possible? There are dynamic ports, after all.
A bit of the "ICE magic" transferred to the operator graph, so to speak.


Softimage, sadly, is the most "hermetic" application of them all in a way. For now, it remains impossible to add custom operators with equal rights as the factory ones. Max and Maya's customization possibilities go much much deeper.
Still after years of requests, almost no efforts are made to for example enhance the operator SDK.
I left 3ds Max once because development stalled, at least where it counts. I see the same thing happening here now, too.

Anything is possible, though, it's only a question of will. If Autodesk would fully focus on Softimage's customizability and support external developers wherever they can, the story could continue happily for many years.
Interesting, how can you able to insert operator into middle of stack without ruin relations between existing operators? I think it is main advantage of Softimage again Maya, no messy of nodes. All is logically structured.

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Hirazi Blue » 27 Jul 2013, 08:51

You've lost me at "Maya", I'm afraid... (-|
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Mathaeus » 27 Jul 2013, 09:30

brudney wrote:
vrMan wrote:
Have you seen Maya's Node Editor? It's pretty nice to work with already. Not as elegant as ICE yet, but definitely more than usable. I would imagine it getting better and better, especially since ex-xsi devs are on maya team now.
Take them all my friend, if you want. If you could arrange to keep them on Maya forums, even better. But... according to the words of one of ex-xsi, who knows, maybe they'll create the same damage in your house, as they already did in Softimage. Keep tracking them, at least. By the way, some of them, including ICE team leader, are not AD employers for a long time.

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by luceric » 27 Jul 2013, 10:26

keeper wrote:Interesting, how can you able to insert operator into middle of stack without ruin relations between existing operators? I think it is main advantage of Softimage again Maya, no messy of nodes. All is logically structured.
We ex-softies agree, especially with the constructors markers it gives some order to operations in the graph.
Although that looks like that idea is going to lose itself in the mysts of times (in future software of future decades, I mean), as some users seem to be fixated on wanting everything houdini-style and fully nodal, and they associate "modifier stacks" with 3dsmax and "low end". bah. It's a little bit like an afterfx vs shake debate. you'll recall that the modo people try to Not have a shader tree for materials, and what people thought of that. In apps where the full graph is exposed, usually operators are designed to have fewer inputs/output and it's easier to insert nodes at arbitrary places, so all doesn't have to be lost.
Last edited by luceric on 27 Jul 2013, 10:47, edited 6 times in total.