SI 2013 sightings

Maximus · Post by **Maximus** » 20 Apr 2012, 06:10

EricTRocks wrote:
Not sure how this fits in with Softimage dev....

Who said anything about dev, i was referring at the overall picture, the "sinking ship" argument.

EricTRocks wrote:
For you it might not meet your needs but for many others its getting the job done just fine, so leaving it out would not help a lot of those who find it good for a first version.

I could say the same to people who doesnt find it useful.

EricTRocks wrote:
Depends on the studio you're at. Though i think it is attractive to both Commercial and Film studios. Another tool in the arsenal.

Yes another tool in the arsenal, a niche tool.

EricTRocks wrote:
Any software has bugs. Expecting a release with none is ilogical. I wasn't pointing those out as new features. More that things were worked on and fixed as to justify that it wasn't a bad release.

Could just say the opposite: i cant say its a good release because of bugfixes.

EricTRocks wrote:
I don't think we can kid ourselves in thinking we have ever known where Softimage dev was going so why expect it now?

Who said anything about now? Its a overall picture of the status we're used to. Paying and not knowing what we get. Add this to the overall crappy picture and Autodesk service. Anyway even if we never known where Soft dev was goin doesnt mean is a good thing or way to handle customers. It adds to the overall dissatisfaction, because i spent 1k for nothing.

EricTRocks wrote:
Who says they haven't been around for a while getting up to speed already? Just because they were intro'd yesterday doesn't mean they JUST got hired. If you don't like spending the money then its simple don't spend the money and move on. I personally wouldn't like this but you're not being held down with a gun to your head having to stay with Soft. Just saying you do have a choice and the power to use your money as a way to demonstrate your unhappiness. And honestly by the looks of it, you don't need any of the new features in 2013 so don't upgrade / renew subscription.

Gotta love to speak with you really, again i could say the same: who says they didnt just got hired? You are not allowed to know anything with AD so its normal people tend to think the worse considering the recent drop of "old" softimage staff for maya/max. Thanks for your suggestion about not spending money and move on, i couldnt think about that by myself.

EricTRocks wrote:
As I stated earlier, studios have staff turnover on each project. I don't see it terribly different either. Having to work on 1 project for 10+ years isn't necessarily something I'd be interested in personally.

Really? All at once? i wonder who left from old Softimage staff now? I mean if this doesnt ring a bell, what does? Happy living in a dream.
Personally this is turning into a 12 years old kid discussion and i'm out.

In the end, facts are what matters, they are worth 1000 words, Autodesk can say whatever they want, but facts are that the releases are getting worse every year and the price is increasing every year.
Its my opinion since i'm the one writing so its pointless for you to answer "thats for you, someone else might find it usefull, or a good release."

Thanks

Edit: sorry I hit the edit button instead of quote. Thats what I get for having moderator powers. No harm intended. - Eric T.

EricTRocks · Post by **EricTRocks** » 20 Apr 2012, 07:16

What I was going to reply with was basically, I'm not trying to have a 12 yr old discussion. More I'm countering the points you've brought up. It's true you can take those things and spin them around however, in the cases where you're holding back a feature that would help many productions and not necessarily all, then you're hurting the ones it could have helped by not releasing it. In comparison, if you would have held the ICE implementation back until we got ICE Topo, we would have had years without any ICE at all. :\

Secondly, Luc-Eric posted on the mailing list that many in that team have helped develop for the past 2 releases so they are not extremely new to the team.

Kerro Perro · Post by **Kerro Perro** » 20 Apr 2012, 07:37

I'm assuming you mean not so new

Anyhoo this thread is becoming a bit of a distraction for me so i'd just like say to the new dev's good luck and welcome aboard!
If you guys help out a few stuck users on this board i'm sure most will warm to you fairly quickly

Laters ;)

bottleofram · Post by **bottleofram** » 20 Apr 2012, 09:04

Doesn't anybody else wonder what this newly created maya Montreal unit is going to work on?

They've been telling us for years that ICE is the selling point of softimage and only thanks to ICE have softimage sales been up every year (never mind its a brilliant software overall, the perception is whats important). The adoption is slow but at least there are interested parties and pipelines that start relying on softimage more and more... What do you suppose is going to happen once they start developing a similar (node based) procedural workflow for maya? It wont happen over night - its certainly going to take years before anything of substance can come out of it, but once the word is out, you can bet your pants no VFX house will ever look in softimage's direction even if it takes a long while before maya can catch up. It just wont matter. It's cheaper to wait a decade for them to get to ICE's level field than to invest in softimage at this point.

Im throwing a bunch of wild guesses, and Graham will inevitably chime in with his usual "you are reading too much into it"... But what are we suppose to think here? How do you justify such a large part of the team being shifted to another package?

You can not tell us what they are going to be working on, but you can tell us what they are NOT going to be working on...

So, is it not ICE for Maya?

Bellsey · Post by **Bellsey** » 20 Apr 2012, 09:06

Again I said on the mailing list, this may be the 'end' for some and if people want to believe its the end of Softimage, then that's down to them. Nothing I/we can seems to be able to convince people otherwise, so I'm not going to waste my breath. Sounds harsh I know but all things people want to know, we can't talk about, so we only end up going round in circles.

Forums like these are great, as its good to see peoples views, but personally I do think people get distracted by small things, which aren't the real issues.
Softimage on the main Autodesk website - forget about it, move on. Read my previous posts about this, it is what it is and that's it. The marketing strategy, again the lack of Softimage specific stuff is not the problem as we're not doing product-centric now, its all about Suites. Could it still be better overall - sure, but from my point of view, moaning about the marketing, doesn't make people think about looking at Softimage.

Personally, as I said on the list, I'm not wallowing in all thats going on, but moving forward in my role and that's (amongst other things) to push Softimage as much as possible, as I see it as crucial to Suites, which is very much a big focus for Autodesk. No one has told not to do otherwise.w I did an event here in London yesterday where I showed more Soft than anything else and everyone was interested, especially in crowds and some of the awesome stuff from Eric Mootz and Exocortex.

Chinny and the guys have steered Softimage through the acquistion and to a point where perhaps they feel that the time is right to move on, Soft needs new ideas from new people. Chinny will still be there and still wear his Softimage hat, it's just that his new one is bigger.
It may surprise you that the other teams (Maya, Max, Mobu, etc) have also gone through a similar process, in moving dev resource around and getting new people in. Some core people stayed, but some moved on and new people came in. New people bring new ideas and a fresh approach. However this can only happen successfully, if we have input from you guys - the customers/users, and the more help and support we can give Chun-Pong and his team, the better.

Nizar · Post by **Nizar** » 20 Apr 2012, 09:24

This is your best post dear Bellsey, we poor customers don't know and have a distorted view about the process behind AD plan and moving. So I like your point of view (new people=fresh idea)

It may surprise you that the other teams (Maya, Max, Mobu, etc) have also gone through a similar process, in moving dev resource around and getting new people in. Some core people stayed, but some moved on and new people came in. New people bring new ideas and a fresh approach. However this can only happen successfully, if we have input from you guys - the customers/users, and the more help and support we can give Chun-Pong and his team, the better.

Cannot agree here, in my experience, AD/softimage didn't so many requests/suggestions implemented in past softimage release (also is hardly find in forums someone who want a crowd simulation... don't misunderstand, I like it, don't need but like it

Pooby · Post by **Pooby** » 20 Apr 2012, 09:24

Doesn't anybody else wonder what this newly created maya Montreal unit is going to work on?

They've been telling us for years that ICE is the selling point of softimage and only thanks to ICE have softimage sales been up every year (never mind its a brilliant software overall, the perception is whats important). The adoption is slow but at least there are interested parties and pipelines that start relying on softimage more and more... What do you suppose is going to happen once they start developing a similar (node based) procedural workflow for maya? It wont happen over night - its certainly going to take years before anything of substance can come out of it, but once the word is out, you can bet your pants no VFX house will ever look in softimage's direction even if it takes a long while before maya can catch up. It just wont matter. It's cheaper to wait a decade for them to get to ICE's level field than to invest in softimage at this point.

Im throwing a bunch of wild guesses, and Graham will inevitably chime in with his usual "you are reading too much into it"... But what are we suppose to think here? How do you justify such a large part of the team being shifted to another package?

You can not tell us what they are going to be working on, but you can tell us what they are NOT going to be working on...

So, is it not ICE for Maya?

Of course at some point, Maya will get something like ICE. Its bound to happen and thats a really good thing.. I hope every package has something like ICE at some point as being able to manipulate the 3d data in this user friendly way within a 3d package is utterly brilliant and amazing. Its the natural next step and its ALL about the power to user friendliness and speed ratio, not JUST power.

However, its going to take quite a few years for other packages to catch up with ICE, so, instead of worrying that others will, why not enjoy the fact that we have the cutting edge tech and are a massive head start on everyone else and will be ahead for many years.

Bellsey · Post by **Bellsey** » 20 Apr 2012, 09:43

Nizar wrote:This is your best post dear Bellsey, we poor customers don't know and have a distorted view about the process behind AD plan and moving. So I like your point of view (new people=fresh idea)

It may surprise you that the other teams (Maya, Max, Mobu, etc) have also gone through a similar process, in moving dev resource around and getting new people in. Some core people stayed, but some moved on and new people came in. New people bring new ideas and a fresh approach. However this can only happen successfully, if we have input from you guys - the customers/users, and the more help and support we can give Chun-Pong and his team, the better.
Cannot agree here, in my experience, AD/softimage didn't so many requests/suggestions implemented in past softimage release (also is hardly find in forums someone who want a crowd simulation... don't misunderstand, I like it, don't need but like it

Well I'm only going with what the team decided, and I think Crowds was a good choice and perfect for ICE. Some people did want it, but some people didn't, but it's nigh impossible to satisfy everyone. When you look at, we don't have a crowds solution, but now we have offering which we can show to our customers. Its also gives Softimage something unique that Max/Maya don't have.

bottleofram · Post by **bottleofram** » 20 Apr 2012, 09:56

Pooby wrote:instead of worrying that others will, why not enjoy the fact that we have the cutting edge tech and are a massive head start

Except, we dont. Sidefx has the cutting edge tech and a massive head start. Softimage has barely started gaining momentum. And i dont see sidefx developing another houdini-esque application.

Besides, i am not against having ice-like system in maya. It would make my life a whole lot easier when im forced to work in it. Its the fact that the rest of it will stay a disorganized pile of garbage that everyone continues to use even when its not the best solution for a given task.

The other point... about taking long before something like ice can surface up elsewhere... i covered that well enough. Not worth repeating.

In any case, i think im just a very stupid man. Im trying to have a conversation with a wall.

Cheers

EDIT: typo

Nizar · Post by **Nizar** » 20 Apr 2012, 10:03

Its also gives Softimage something unique that Max/Maya don't have.

Agree, is absolutely true.
I hope new team listen some users requests (like better and complete mental ray integration

Also, I see in softimage description disappear the sentence "best maya companion" , substitute with a more political correct "extend Autodesk® Maya® or Autodesk® 3ds Max® software pipelines"

In any case, i think im just a very stupid man. Im trying to have a conversation with a wall.

Not a wall, but, if excluding Bellsey effort, ADSK doing the bad feeling they don't care about customers. This is bad. Also, AD is too big for listen a bunch of little customers, the big voice come from Hollywood/Big studios, and not from us.

ICE in maya? I don't think, at all. IMHO AD will prefer see every single users buying the creative suite or all three major software instead a single one. So I think all will continue in this consolidated manner.

ace63 · Post by **ace63** » 20 Apr 2012, 10:37

Nizar wrote: I hope new team listen some users requests (like better and complete mental ray integration

Well this is a perfect example of what Bellsey said when he talked about not being able to please everyone.
At this point I couldn't care less about mental ray - having used Arnold and VRay I fail to see how mental ray could ever catch up
at the pace they are going. I don't use it anymore at all.

Pooby · Post by **Pooby** » 20 Apr 2012, 11:01

Except, we dont. Sidefx has the cutting edge tech and a massive head start. Softimage has barely started gaining momentum. And i dont see sidefx developing another houdini-esque application.

Besides, i am not against having ice-like system in maya. It would make my life a whole lot easier when im forced to work in it. Its the fact that the rest of it will stay a disorganized pile of garbage that everyone continues to use even when its not the best solution for a given task.

The other point... about taking long before something like ice can surface up elsewhere... i covered that well enough. Not worth repeating.

In any case, i think im just a very stupid man. Im trying to have a conversation with a wall.

Cheers

On my post I wrote a bit about Houdini, then deleted it for Brevity, instead making the point that its not JUST about Power.

Houdini can do a lot more than ICE, but its not anywhere near as straightforward, easy or fast, and requires a lot of expressions and maths. Although its a nodal system, in terms of ease of use, the two are as different as sculpting with Clay, or with Marble.

Tekano · Post by **Tekano** » 20 Apr 2012, 11:39

I'm with Pooby on this analogy, having invested the last 4 years or so of my time heavily in ICE, it feels as a medium, as easy and wonderful to work in as clay now. I love it and am regularly amazed at what someone like me with no formal maths or programming training can accomplish in 10 minutes that would, 4 years ago be inconceivable even to comprehend, never mind string some nodes together and have a working proof of concept. Im looking at Houdini and right now and it is so much harder than marble to work with. more like trying to move a whole mountain to a new location with a spoon. Granted, over time this will seem less daunting, but what choice do I have? wait and see what happens with Maya whilst hoping for the best? no thanks. if the investment in SI R&D dev is falling by the wayside for this superior Maya shit how long is going to be before the small amounts of Studios left that use Softimage realize it is no longer worth their while and get Maya shoved down their pipelines? a year, two years maybe?

McNistor · Post by **McNistor** » 20 Apr 2012, 12:13

There's no AD product oriented forum that lacks constant complaining - some justified, some not - and this tells a lot about public perception towards Autodesk as a company. I'm not sure I'd like something like zbrushcentral where's only praising (god, did you see that forum?) but a more "relaxed" community would be nice. And no, I don't think it's mainly users' fault... with all the bad and good, we the users(customers), have you forgot dear AD about the commerce golden rule, are always right when you draw a mean value graph. Problem is probably AD considers only the big studios their clients or at least their voices are heard first

I wonder how are houdini's forums

EricTRocks · Post by **EricTRocks** » 20 Apr 2012, 12:27

Of course bigger studios are going to have more pull. They dump thousands of dollars into a products where only an individual spends a few. The entity giving more money is going to have more say. That is across the board not just AD. That is just business. Also it was this way with Softimage pre-aquisition too.

Nizar · Post by **Nizar** » 20 Apr 2012, 12:34

I wonder how are houdini's forums

SideFX forum is like CGtalk softimage forum: a dead place.

ODforce is more animated, but usually Houdini users are pretty happy about SideFx release and I don't see so bad comments like in Maya or Softimage forum. The users is pretty sure about Houdini development and future and are faithful regards SideFx

SI 2013 sightings

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