OK, so the sky isn't falling, but AD isn't marketing SI well

[electricgeisha]

Well you could look at it 2 ways yes you could possible be right... but also maybe these companies don't think it is worth their time and money. Hence why SI's community is so small and seems to be on the back burner.

Just a thought and we all have differing thoughts hence this discussion.

[Hirazi Blue]

@Wacom - While I agree, the GoZ story is not a "true indicator" of the troubles with Softimage, it most definitively is "A" indicator that something's not quite right, especially if one considers the friendly relations Avid|Softimage seemed to have with Pixologic (stuff like the "TD Love" tour come to mind)
The third-party renderer problem is a whole different story in my book. While everybody publicly yearns for more options, I don't really think (but this is a mere assumption) 3Delight's sales went through the roof, since they released their version of 3Delight for Softimage. So maybe the true market for external renderers is smaller than the constant MR bashing would have us believe...

Personally I think - and not as a moderator of this forum, but as a long-time user of the software, I hasten to add - the marketing of the product isn't really the problem here. We simply do not know how effective this marketing actually is, even if it ruffles the feathers of the existing user base the wrong way. I am willing to believe the official story, that the user base is still growing.
But, as there always is a "but", I think the real issue doesn't lie with marketing at all, but more with PR, which includes communicating with the existing user base. Chinny spoke of a "broken record" to indicate how some doubts and fears seem to keep surfacing, no matter what "they" say. That's probably because it doesn't really matter, what you say, the trick lies in how you say it. And in the end the trick truly lies in keeping a good relationship with your existing user base and this includes not taking any kind criticism as mere "fear-mongering", "conspiracy theories" or anything like that. Taking the time to communicate with the user base and not just dismissing any comments you don't like as "silly", would help improve the trust the user base has in the product.
But then again, this post will probably be seen as "fear-mongering" also...

[wacom]

I guess I agree, but see them both as part of the equation. First, at least in the most recent incident, there was a marketing promotion, the premium bundle, that was released with SI looking like companion software. This whipped up the frenzy. Then, as you've so correctly pointed out, there was no immediate follow up of any kind, to ease softimage users thoughts.

They could have come right out and said why this was a good thing, and released that info, right away, before a single post had been landed. There is the PR error, and the several that then followed afterward. I mean, if on the mailing list and most of the boards there was a press-release done by part of the si team that explained the whys of the premium package, coupled with a few hints at things to possibly come to SI along with some moderated speech about how things are going well I might have prevented some of this from happening.

I guess I see it as a kind of cycle. Either the PR gets messed up, or the marketing, or both, and then it's damage control from there on out.

Then again- some people are going to read the tea leaves no mater what- and the only way they're going to believe that SI is not destined for the dust bin is if there is a full page ad taken out in every magazine and newspaper with guest appearances on morning talk shows, and huge viral campaigns that leave even Presidents talking about SI. These people, who are the fringe IMHO, could never be satisfied.

Still, maybe it IS a sign of SI's growth, given that the user base for years, was drawn to and only cared about the features. Nobody had to come on the scene and explain things away like they do now and it probably reflects that si is in a larger amount of hands, and much higher profile than before- even without much extra marketing or PR muscle behind it.

The sad thing is that the more people keep talking about dooms day for SI, the more they actually stimulate that speculation over all, and the more they drive down "consumer confidence" in the software.

[dirtydog]

I went to a autodesk promotional tour a while back( before they purchased xsi), and the sales pitch was that of Maya for the media/fx and 3dmax for architects, and that was the opinion of all the attendees and The upgrades to the two packages also supported that opinion/sales pitch.

And given that 3dmax is also successful in the media industries, its going to be there for a long while.

And given that Maya is autodesks main media app( just look at the ugrades to Maya), its not going for a while yet.

And given that Xsi selling point is ICE( look at the sales pitch) we have to accept that Xsi is a powerfull companion to autodesks main apps( sales pitch).

The sales pitch has been made for the bundles, were stuck with it for another year.

I'am leaving this thread, IMHO everything been said, thank you all.

[Hirazi Blue]

Over @ the Area Luc-Eric Rousseau posted a clear game-plan for the future of Softimage a while back:

The plan moving forward is to continue to develop the product for the existing clients, who are in equal part in Post and Games, and separately also having a better interoperability story for Maya and 3DSMax user so they can also benefit from ICE and Face Robot.

(the original post can be found here)

"Post and Games". That's something Autodesk marketing should be able to work with, one would think. Not everybody will be ecstatic about this path, but at least it's a clear path IMHO.

BTW, I think ICE has gotten too much attention (not just by the company, but also by the user base) since its introduction, to the point of almost drowning out the definitive qualities XSI had before the introduction of ICE. But that's a different story...

[electricgeisha]

I certainly think "Games" would be a great angle in the marketing approach.

[Hirazi Blue]

Expanding on my earlier theme of "better PR":
Whatever happened to the old Softimage (the company) blog sites,
which didn't necessarily provide us
with too much actual information, but were a nice PR attempt,
providing a "friendly face" to the company?
The sites do still exist, but are obviously not maintained anymore,
but that kind of blog shouldn't be all that hard to restart, I would think...

Those old sites were:
Softimage News, Softimage on the Road and Softimage at Siggraph
(and perhaps even more that I can't recall...)
;)

[Bellsey]

those blog sites were put in place way before Autodesk acquired Softimage and were maintained by the main PR/Marketing people at Softimage, at the time, i.e. Jennifer Goldfinch, Leonard Teo, Kevin G Clark.

When the company was acquired, only Jenn and Leo moved to Autodesk, also since then Leo has also moved on to the Gnomon School. Jenn is still with is at Autodesk, but focuses more on education, which was also one of the many things she did at Softimage previously.
Also these sites didn't quite fit into the Autodesk system as 'official' blogs from employees, so they haven't been kept going. Things like the AREA and other things should really take these over.

When these sites were created, we only have a pretty small resource, whereas now there are teams and processes that can do this. So, yes it can be just as easy to create similar sites, but there's a bigger picture to consider, etc etc. It's not impossible though, just perhaps takes a little longer. Previously, Softaimge being smaller, meant that it was more flexible and agile in getting some things done.

[luceric]

IMHO these blog sites were not really useful and impossible to find anyway (why wasn't on the main web site?), reaching perhaps only a dozen people who still read blogs. I think we already have the best resource to reach our clients; the xsi mailing list, with more than a thousands of our clients. No other Autodesk 3D product has a similar resource and direct access to the dev team. I think TDs and artists want to be in contact with other artists and the dev team, and don't want to read corporate press releases and the musing of some PR types that don't really know the software. Mark Schoennagel, being the sales demo artist, is the right person to have a blog, so he's our representant on The Area with Planet Softimage and that works very well. There isn't much to blog about with all the red tape. But I'm sure a mail on the mailing list reaches more important people more quickly than a blog.

[electricgeisha]

How do you join the mailing list? Also PR may not interest old or current users but would certainly help with getting new users... just my opinion. Also for current users a bit of nostalgia when people say Softimage has been used for eg. Saboteur make your current users feel like they are on the right track. This approach seems well adopted for Max/Maya eg. Max/ Assassins Creed etc... might just work for Softimage. Inregards to "red tape" maybe AD needs to find a new policy that newly adopted products don't go straight under the iron curtain and get maybe 24 months grace to show whats happening under the new management... again just my thoughts.

[Hirazi Blue]

@electricgeisha:

Send an email to
softimage-request[at]listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: subscribe
Then reply to confirmation email

@Autodesk|Softimage:
seems like I cannot really say or do anything right in the eyes of you guys these days...

@luceric:
IMHO those blogs were never intended purely for their informational value, they just tried to present the company in a slightly more friendly manner. And that's basically what PR mostly is about, BTW. The value of the Mailing List, though admittedly high, really doesn't lie in the realm of PR.

PS - I give up

[electricgeisha]

Thanks! for the heads up on the email address.
Cheers

[Bellsey]

You also use google to look at the list archive, so you don't have to be subscribed, if you don't want to.

But speaking about the list, there has been a flurry of activity following the Siggraph announcement of the Premium Suites and also Chinny's frustrated post, which I totally relate too.
Here's a link to a post made by Maurice Patel and also subsequent others like Jenn Goldfinch. Rather than copy and paste the text, its easier to put the links:
Maurice post
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/xsi_li ... f29a?hl=en

More of the thread:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/xsi_li ... 54e?hl=en&

[wacom]

After thankfully getting a break from being anywhere near a computer or the internet for several days and gaining some perspective, I kind of feel like now I've been using a thought process that is the equivalent to a shot gun for a situation that needed more precise targets. So I apologize if I've missed my targets and hit some innocent AD employees and SI employees in the cross fire (as if my words carry such weight!). In my defense, I just don't know who, at AD, is in charge of the web site marketing OR what happens a kiosks at shows. I'm sure it is much more complicated than I was imagining.

Personally, all I really think that is needed to help reduce the radio noise from the panic crowd is some simple additions to the web site, and maybe a few minor web banner ads. One would think that listing SI on the product pages with Alias and Maya where it seems more applicable, on the Area and AD main side, would be a relatively cost effective means of doing this. That and a bit more info on the mailing lists and forums (like is now happening- post freak out) for SI employees and a few more over reaching AD employees. Nothing fancy, just some slight blips on the radar like we've now had (thank you for responding to the "mass panic" BTW).

As for the Siggraph show, and other more expensive marketing tools, I'm not sure they are really needed. Helpful, even deserving at times for the SI crew and the user base- yes- but in the end, they are more expensive and harder to organize and carry out than a few small additions to a list or two or an ad here or there.

I am not a marketing genius or PR mastermind (obviously by the way I've marketed myself here and elsewhere), so maybe these ideas don't mean anything anyway and it's just more wasted electrons over the net. I really don't care what method (even the current one) is used by the PR and marketing teams so long as it solidifies the base better, has clear direction, and includes the fostering of SI to continue its development as a worthy alternative to Maya, Max, Houdini, or any other more "complete" and robust 3D package.

Much of this radio silence though is understandably created by most public companies. This "Premium Package" is something they can release, with out really releasing much that they have a hard time sticking to at the end of the year. In addition, it seems, for better or worse, AD has tight control over their image and message. So we can not expect the SI team to always be so quick to respond and "chatty" with the base at times IMHO.

On the positive side, each time these little "skirmishes" happen I think more and more people get a little bit over the AD buyout and we move further to a day when that part of the SI history is behind everyone and we can just talk about the software and where it's going, with out this underlying subtext of (often mis-directed) frustration and fear of what AD MIGHT be doing with SI etc.

In the end, I recommend that those who can, take the time to get their hind quarters off the computer now and again, go take a walk, hike, read a book, watch the news, see children playing with the elderly, see some golden girls re-runs and gain some perspective on how relevant software is in their lives. I'm not downplaying how important a tool is you use most if not all days to make a living, just saying it can give you a bit better...perspective on life so sometimes go with out it!

[wacom]

Bellsey, thank you for posting Jennifer's list response.

Yes, education and content/user profiles that are created by studios can help, in fact a lot more than a banner ad on the area. That is, these are esp. helpful at getting potentially new users interested in SI and expanding the opportunities for SI users in the future.

I think what many are complaining about right now, is what looks to be a lack of marketing and PR that helps solidify the current user base. However, if things for SI expanded further on the educational/industry front, then the kind of PR that helps the confidence of the user base would naturally go up. Still, I don't see it as an else/or type of situation- I think both are needed, even if one, over the long term, has more weight.

AFAIK, Max and Maya already had larger user bases than SI before they were acquired by AD, and so in a sense, had a head start on these areas for sure. I think a lot of frustration from the SI user side might come from that many of us expected the AD purchase of SI to magically over night put SI on the fast track or same level playing field as MAX and Maya in these regards. However, it is clear that, things on the ground and in the trenches, AKA real life, are more complicated.

Again, I think the direct contact on the forums and the list of AD employees illustrating this ordeal to the user base, since users only sees an amazing product in front of them and "lacking PR/Marketing", helps keep a lid on the "freak out panic" user base while helping them "feel" closer to being on the inside instead of excluded from the conversion. (It also keeps clutter like this from distracting meaningful user discussions and AD employees).

While this might represent only a small segment of the actual user base, as you know it is a very vocal one, which fortunately/unfortunately can inadvertently effect the bottom line (AKA maintain existing users and getting new ones) for those who might be on the fence about using SI.

I also think just the size of the current user base alone warrants a some what different approach than might work with one as large as the Maya base. At least until there is a bit more growth and direction. It is unfortunately in many ways a small town mentality eh?

[Lord Futzi Voldemort]

Bellsey, thank you for posting Jennifer's list response.

Yes, education and content/user profiles that are created by studios can help, in fact a lot more than a banner ad on the area. That is, these are esp. helpful at getting potentially new users interested in SI and expanding the opportunities for SI users in the future.

I think what many are complaining about right now, is what looks to be a lack of marketing and PR that helps solidify the current user base. However, if things for SI expanded further on the educational/industry front, then the kind of PR that helps the confidence of the user base would naturally go up. Still, I don't see it as an else/or type of situation- I think both are needed, even if one, over the long term, has more weight.

AFAIK, Max and Maya already had larger user bases than SI before they were acquired by AD, and so in a sense, had a head start on these areas for sure. I think a lot of frustration from the SI user side might come from that many of us expected the AD purchase of SI to magically over night put SI on the fast track or same level playing field as MAX and Maya in these regards. However, it is clear that, things on the ground and in the trenches, AKA real life, are more complicated.

Again, I think the direct contact on the forums and the list of AD employees illustrating this ordeal to the user base, since users only sees an amazing product in front of them and "lacking PR/Marketing", helps keep a lid on the "freak out panic" user base while helping them "feel" closer to being on the inside instead of excluded from the conversion. (It also keeps clutter like this from distracting meaningful user discussions and AD employees).

While this might represent only a small segment of the actual user base, as you know it is a very vocal one, which fortunately/unfortunately can inadvertently effect the bottom line (AKA maintain existing users and getting new ones) for those who might be on the fence about using SI.

I also think just the size of the current user base alone warrants a some what different approach than might work with one as large as the Maya base. At least until there is a bit more growth and direction. It is unfortunately in many ways a small town mentality eh?

And so say we all.

Achim