Is ICE the best way to learn the guts?

[MauricioPC]

Today I sort of had the rage/anger again of the Eol of SI. Since the announcement I've been playing with Max, Maya and trying to figure out what to do. I don't hate both software, but they aren't SI, not even close.

I think NNois is right ... I shouldn't waste more time on something from AD. This sh*t started with Combustion, which I always thought was A LOT better than After Effects. I guess it's time to change, learn Modo, learn Houdini and get on with the study.

But damn I'll miss SI and ICE.

[Mathaeus]

By the way, I think one is missing from list. Modo since 701, has very nice particle system, controlled by nodes. Of course, I don't believe it's aimed to give to Modo the strategic advantage over Houdini or ICE, but for 'fast setup in everyday life, plus much more if needed', I think it's great. It is controlled by nodes, but it can live without them for simple tasks. It has a sort of state operator, flow controlled by curves, even built-in flocking solver, and more ( for easy flocking solver, in ICE, you want to buy some of mr. Mootz plugins).
Tried to push the Modo particle thing to high numbers, worked surprisingly well. On top of that, for what it can render ( volumes around particles, blobs. sprites), somehow traditionally, Modo renderer is able to compete against, let's say.... all three AD Mental Ray's together.

[MauricioPC]

But I guess the major problem I hear about Modo (from their own forums) is that Modo is still very 'crashy'. And this I can say about C4D, I never crashed the damn thing and I'm a little crazy throwing things around.

As for the particles in C4D, yeah ... the only way to throw thousands of particles around in C4D is X-Particles. But X-Particles is SO easy. Have you guys seen the videos from NAB? I

[Mathaeus]

And this I can say about C4D, I never crashed the damn thing and I'm a little crazy throwing things around.

Well I think you should work a bit more on that From what I sow, there are many situations where c4d just refuses to response, using 100% of CPU, waiting for something to be evaluated, ambitious xpresso tree, 50-10o of proximity shaders, so on. Yeah it won't crash, but user is forced to do that.
From personal experience, Modo could be bitchy with working interactive render preview, over some complex operation in scene. But I already have habit from XSI to press ctrl+S before anything related to render region - and ..... such feature simple does not exist in C4d, or not on comparable level.
Started to learn both C4d and Modo around 2012, at first I've preferred C4d. Now, If I have to use c4d, I think I'd feel like bear in zoo ( sooo nicely arranged zoo, but zoo). Harmless for short time, in long time I think I'll just vanish. While with Modo, there's constant ratio of love and anger - at least, this somehow fits to my bear's nature. And Foundry people makes my bear's life soo much better from 601 to 801, while I really don't know what's happened from C4d 13 to 15. Ah yeah, integration with After Affects, used by no one c4d user known to me - and let me guess, who financed this thing. How Adobe participated in this connection. Zero $ from Adobe, one $ from Adobe......

[MauricioPC]

Hey Matheus, thanks for all the talk. It's good to know a little more things. I already have given up on C4D, not because it isn't good, but because it's not what I'm looking for.

Right now, I'm trying and deciding between continuing with 3ds Max (and staying with AD) or going for a Modo + Houdini workflow. Maya I've decided I don't like and I think now I should focus on something that makes me feel at ease working and studying.

I took that offer for a longer trial + some training from DT for Modo and I'm delving a little more into it. Let's see.

[luchifer]

C4d does have interactive render region, with slider quality as in XSI. Further more, mograph effects are not for mograph only, as you can do a 'one-click' spring animation of anything (delay effect>spring), not just mograph text.

In fact, the first ICE tutorial I have learned (get data > randomize around value > set data) to learn how to deform the vertex points of an object is one click, again with mograph effects (random effector > deformation point).

Problem with C4d is that many people believe that mograph effects only work with mograph, and that C4D only does Motion Graphics. Wich just isnt true. So, while xpresso may seems lacking in some areas, is way easier to setup and understand than ICE. And you can cover a lot of programming voids because you can mix/match xpresso with mograph and particles and what not.

And thats something else users dont realize, One look at the particle simulation (simulate>particles) and it may appear that C4D lacks a lot and you must need a plugin like X-particles, but in fact, you can, as I said, use mograph effectors with particles.

Scene interaction in C4D is a pain with large objects, but you can either lower the viewport resolution (project setting > level of detail) when you are making adjustments, or you can organize your scene in layers and show/hide from viewport what you dont need. You can even have an object in one layer and the effects of that object in another layer.

Now, from my experience, I would not be able to comprehend a lot of programing stuff, not without ICE, but a programming language. So if you want to learn a nodal approach and programming, first learn some visual basic, or better yet, learn python. Nodal interaction can do so much, and python will get you past the barriers of the nodal interface or the software limits.

edit.. the cool thing about learning python or a programming language instead of the nodal interface, from my experience, is that you can translate your programming skills to maya, 3dsmax, houdini, c4d, photoshop, after effect, nuke, etc, etc, etc. and this is without even knowing the software too deeply (because, as silly as it sounds, when you write a script the "old way", you see the software like the movie matrix)

[Mathaeus]

edit.. the cool thing about learning python or a programming language instead of the nodal interface, from my experience, is that you can translate your programming skills to maya, 3dsmax, houdini, c4d, photoshop, after effect, nuke, etc, etc, etc. and this is without even knowing the software too deeply (because, as silly as it sounds, when you write a script the "old way", you see the software like the movie matrix)

So you just transferred your SI scripts to c4d, aren't you Seems to be something new, well I've heard that just scripting from one 3d app doesn't fit into another, except very basic stuff.

About interactive render region, usually that means also the render engine, or connection with it, able to take the changes immediately. NOT plain another window with hidden borders.

[luchifer]

edit.. the cool thing about learning python or a programming language instead of the nodal interface, from my experience, is that you can translate your programming skills to maya, 3dsmax, houdini, c4d, photoshop, after effect, nuke, etc, etc, etc. and this is without even knowing the software too deeply (because, as silly as it sounds, when you write a script the "old way", you see the software like the movie matrix)

So you just transferred your SI scripts to c4d, aren't you Seems to be something new, well I've heard that just scripting from one 3d app doesn't fit into another, except very basic stuff.

About interactive render region, usually that means also the render engine, or connection with it, able to take the changes immediately. NOT plain another window with hidden borders.

I succesfully translated basic stuff (a customizable pie chart and a customizable graph bar chart) from C4D to Ross Xpression and Vizrt Touchscreen (software for broadcasting, I needed to do real time information for election day), c4d is basically is python + xpresso, the other two are sorta visual basic. So I assume that if its so easy to do it, a real programmer can do the same with not so basic stuff and faster than I do.

edit.. also I have programmed some stuff in After Effects, and if Maya/3ds Max have python too... I dont see how hard would it be.

[MauricioPC]

And how is scripting in Modo? I've heard very little about Modo capabilities of customization by scripting.

I saw the FMX videos and in one it was easy to realize that C4D has very powerful scripting capabilities.

[Mathaeus]

And how is scripting in Modo? I've heard very little about Modo capabilities of customization by scripting.

How it's good, honestly I don't know, also don't know why I should care about it. Generally, yes, I think I'd be able to automatize some repeatable task, but for home use, don't believe I'll need this.
Here I'll be free to bother you with small story: long time ago, in small gamedev facility where I worked, it was a guy who just liked these, what he called, productivity tools. Max script for this or for that. One day he found another job, and no one wanted to proceed with his work, programmers don't like these 'low level' jobs. So, most of his work vanished, by new version of app, or simply because he wasn't present, scripting became related only to 'can't live without' things. Productivity was the same , with or without his tools.

Imho, it's all about quality of let's call it, engine. Viewport engine, playback engine, simulation engine, rendering engine, game engine, Fabric engine If engine under the hood is weak, no one SDK or scripting will help. If it's strong, some way will appear to control this thing, nodes, toolbars, sliders, whatever. Remember Mental Ray's story. In times of well known 'how to match V-Ray interior' thread on CG Talk, Mental Ray was supported by two best nodal systems on the planet (SI and Maya), API, shader writers, what not. V-Ray had old fashion Max's material editor, zero of custom shaders. And we all know who is winner.

Also, I don't believe in 'you can be programmer and artist in same time' story. Artist or programmer, that's it. Everything in between is very risky business. Well, sometime is nice to meet the another side, learn something, but.. just something, when you have time.

[MauricioPC]

And how is scripting in Modo? I've heard very little about Modo capabilities of customization by scripting.

How it's good, honestly I don't know, also don't know why I should care about it. Generally, yes, I think I'd be able to automatize some repeatable task, but for home use, don't believe I'll need this.
Here I'll be free to bother you with small story: long time ago, in small gamedev facility where I worked, it was a guy who just liked these, what he called, productivity tools. Max script for this or for that. One day he found another job, and no one wanted to proceed with his work, programmers don't like these 'low level' jobs. So, most of his work vanished, by new version of app, or simply because he wasn't present, scripting became related only to 'can't live without' things. Productivity was the same , with or without his tools.

Imho, it's all about quality of let's call it, engine. Viewport engine, playback engine, simulation engine, rendering engine, game engine, Fabric engine If engine under the hood is weak, no one SDK or scripting will help. If it's strong, some way will appear to control this thing, nodes, toolbars, sliders, whatever. Remember Mental Ray's story. In times of well known 'how to match V-Ray interior' thread on CG Talk, Mental Ray was supported by two best nodal systems on the planet (SI and Maya), API, shader writers, what not. V-Ray had old fashion Max's material editor, zero of custom shaders. And we all know who is winner.

Also, I don't believe in 'you can be programmer and artist in same time' story. Artist or programmer, that's it. Everything in between is very risky business. Well, sometime is nice to meet the another side, learn something, but.. just something, when you have time.

Thanks for the story.

[luchifer]

mmm perhaps you just want to keep using xsi like the rest of us, and are just looking for an excuse to do that. I can tell you my own story about it... since xsi died, what im doing is using it in conjuntion with species (amazing plugin) and zbrush to sculpt people in my spare time (obj import/export). That way I can still use XSI. Now, lucky for me I work in broadcast, where C4d is king and the work isnt as demanding as the movie industry, so the little knowledge I have in motion graphics is more than enough.

Now, I would like to ask Luceric (because he is Autodesk). or someone who knows, does importing/exporting to obj workflow will remain unaffected with the passing of years? or even that will cease to function someday?

edit: added text.