Windows 8

[Falam]

Sorry, but this thread was one that started off with a interest in Windows 8, and the accompanying hardware.

If you have nothing solid to post here, stay away with personal feelings about this.

There's no need to run the basic flame war on an OS, that's the territory of 15 year olds.

rob

I ordered (1) Retail License, it probably won't come until next week, I hope. I hear it has a steep learning curve, I'll update how things go.

[Rork]

@origin: without the personal notes, it would have been constructive comments. But I'll try to comment objectively.

- I don't understand the "who gives a shit about the under the hood stuff" comment. Is optimizing stuff a bad thing?
- And you cannot disable Metro, it's part of the OS. I think you mean getting the start button back with tools like the one from Stardock?
- And yes, two monitor only for Metro, but I've seen people happily running W8 on more than two monitors. For what I've read, a lot of people enjoy the new multi monitor stuff in W8.

- The Steam guy? Personally I think he made a big mistake, as a lot of people did in comments over the web. He feels threatened now MS has a market too and slashes out towards MS and called W8 shit. W8 isn't shit, it's the MS Store he sees as a thread to Steam. He would have done the same towards Apple, if they had a games market to speak of in their App Store that could threaten Steam.
Suddenly he has competition, and from a very big player as well. But the people who are dedicated gamers will find the places to go to, MS Store, Steam or otherwise.

- Simple Metro apps with not a lot of settings, and average user stuff.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head. That's where Metro comes in.
It's for the average Joe that doesn't understand computers and runs Office and some other stuff. My mom (72) loves W8, as she never fully understood the desktop metaphor and the (where are my files) explorer. She's not alone in that.
I've been a sys admin for a couple of years, and have seen that most people are like that. They just don't get it, or don't want to invest time/too stubborn to get it/invest in it.
That's one of the reasons why people moving to Apple machines are so happy with it, less control(s). It's the main reason why iPads are so popular.
Dumbed down versions of the stuff on the desktop.

With Metro now, it's big tiles that show content and a application icon. You click on it and get a full screen app with just a few controls. How more dumbed down do you get?
In time, we will see more specialized app entering the Store, catered for the Metro styling. For now, dumbed down applications.
Personally, I like a lot of them for what is called 'consumption' these days.

For us "powerusers", yes between "", as a lot of so called powerusers I met didn't even know how to properly use shotcut keys, Metro might feel too restricted.
But the desktop is still there, without the startbutton (but you can easily get to some power user app by right clicking), and works exactly the same as in W7.
With the additional ways of snapping an Metro app to the side, the charms bar to the right and the application switcher to the left.
W8 is just W7 + Metro, and if you don't like it, wait for W9 to see all the annoyances being taken care off ;-)


@ Falam: To get this back on the road towards using W8 with our production applications, maybe it's interesting to write down some numbers running W7 until you upgrade to W8.
I can think of things like:
- boottimes, in my experience this will be faster.
- set up a basic testscene for rendering, and render it, renderregion, one frame and a sequence of frames. Write down the numbers, check the memory levels.
- global memory consumption of W7, and while running your favorite applications.
- running your compositing app, and render some test comps for speed comparison later on.
- more things you might find interesting to test before upgrading.

And don't read into the so called 'tech' sites too much about the steep learning curve, it's plain silly. Of course it's different on first looks, but unless you're a complete deadbrain or just plain stubborn, it will 'grow' on you after a couple of hours of playing with it.
And most of that "steep learning curve" chatter is based on the two beta's, when there wasn't much information yet on how to use the new Metro/Modern/W8 environment. Now W8 is officially out there, the new MS website has been revamped and has a lot of information on using W8, and lot's of websites start to post reviews and walkthrough/tips of W8. Enough material to read up on, and see how it works before upgrading ;-)
It took me half a day on the first betas to get comfortable with the Metro stuff, and the desktop is just one click away. Another pet greeve of a lot of people I don't understand, but hey...
If you're a shotcut key guy like me, some of the new ones for W8 will make you get into that 'zone' very quickly.

I hope you can find the time to do some comparative testing

Personally I'm also waiting for people who have bought a W8 tablet, and share their thoughts and experiences. The Asus Tab just reviewed about 10:30 hours of battery life, that's quite impressive. I would love an ARM tablet with active digitizer, to be able to do some light work and use it as a sketchpad, e-reader and such.

Sorry for the long post, second coffee kicked in ;)

rob

[Hirazi Blue]

But (how) does it run Softimage 2013 SP1?

@Rork - You're absolutely right about a category of users who probably shouldn't call themselves "power users". I think there is an intermediate level between "casual user" and "power user" that is often overlooked, the "normal user", the one who has learned enough (tricks, little "hacks" and stuff) to save him/herself out of any minor disaster, but still need the guidance of an actual "power user" when the "s*** hits the fan". I consider myself one member of that category of "normal users" and IMHO any large shift in the way stuff like the OS is being organized probably hits "us" the hardest...
But I will get to Windows 8 when I need a new workstation, I guess. By that time everybody will be talking Windows 9, I'm afraid.
;)

[Rork]

But (how) does it run Softimage 2013 SP1?

Well... that's why I asked Falam to run some comparitive test when he upgrades ;-)
So far, as far as I can tell from the CP release, all app run as good, if not a bit faster. I had no issues with Softimage, Adobe applications, comp applications and such. Beta drivers were there, or W7 drivers worked just fine.
I upgraded my trustly old HP 9085 laptop, and so far it's humming along fine. But that's not a viabale testbed for the stuff we use on a daily basis ;)

And the intermediate, normal user as you call it, is the one I had to endure the most when working as a sysapp. Claiming a certain level of Windows knowledge and tricks, but very capable of screwing up the simplest of tasks. No offence ;)
Again, the Metro environment should make things more simple, and lessen the 'static' generated by confused users. And the desktop is still there, so you can still use all your old tricks to run the desktop.

rob

[Hirazi Blue]

Yes, it's generally known how dismissively sysops view their charges...
I said nothing about screwing up the "simplest" tasks BTW, so no offense taken (I think)...
I wouldn't dare calling myself a "power user", but that doesn't mean I don't know my way around Windows.
;)

[Rork]

Hehe, it wasn't a stab at your Windows skills.. ;)

Windows 8 is introducing a new, unified way of interacting with our applications. On a tablet, phone and/or workstation. Some of us might not like it, but it is out there now.

And personally I just don't understand all the friction towards W8.
We all had to adjust over the years. I went from Atari/Amiga to DOS, to Unix/Linux, to Winx, to WinNT based systems. Also went through a dozen of CAD/3D apps, used a handful of compositing apps. Switched tracking software about five times.
All very different applications, but in a lot of ways similar and after a couple of days of fiddling around became second nature (again).

</filosophy mode on>
Yes, new stuff can be a little bit confusing at times, but you adjust. That's part of life.
</filosophy mode off>

[pluMmet]

Hehe, it wasn't a stab at your Windows skills.. ;)

Windows 8 is introducing a new, unified way of interacting with our applications. On a tablet, phone and/or workstation. Some of us might not like it, but it is out there now.

And personally I just don't understand all the friction towards W8.
We all had to adjust over the years. I went from Atari/Amiga to DOS, to Unix/Linux, to Winx, to WinNT based systems. Also went through a dozen of CAD/3D apps, used a handful of compositing apps. Switched tracking software about five times.
All very different applications, but in a lot of ways similar and after a couple of days of fiddling around became second nature (again).

</filosophy mode on>
Yes, new stuff can be a little bit confusing at times, but you adjust. That's part of life.
</filosophy mode off>

You make it sound so nonchalant... and inversely overwhelming. A sort of passive aggressive jab.

Amiga Workbench is my favorite OS of all time. This "development" of OS as a program as opposed to what it is supposed to be 'a program layer' that is there as a base to actual programs is disturbing.

With Vista the uproar was in part to the control they tried to implement on programs that interact with it and even a layer for motherboard control between components. That backlash was noted and now they have a new way to interact with the OS and that is the excuse for the control that they are trying to quietly slip in.

Locking out dual boot systems is just another volley in this. The shiny app store crud is another. Any reason they can have to implement control.."we had to to protect the app store, you understand."

I've been warned not to complain about Windows 8 in this thread. Where is the thread to offer critical thinking on the matter? Pffff.

This computer is mine not Microsofts.

[Rork]

Where is the thread to offer critical thinking on the matter? Pffff.

Start one... ;)

This one was started with a interest in using W8 for the work we do, tablets or not. And if it would help us keeping productive or not.
And this complaining about a new Windows version is nothing new btw.

I have seen it when Windows3 came out (why don't we get to keep all in a DOS box), when Windows95 came out (I don't need a friggin startbutton, where's my program manager), when NT came out, when Windows2000 came out, when XP came out (why doesn't my Win95 app run on Windows, it's windows right?, where are the drivers), when Vista came out (why is there this stinking warning box, and where are the drivers), not so much on W7 (and that's basically a cleaned up Vista) although the task bar got a beating, and now with Windows8 (why is there no start button, I want my start button.....irony oh irony...).
In the end we all adjusted and moved on, and XP being the most loved of all, even after people forgot it finally got usable after SP2 came out.

And people who are 'going to get an Apple'. That doesn't help you much in the "it's my computer" area ;)

So... again, if people upgraded to Windows8, let us know if all the stuff you ran under W7 is still working. What works better, or worse, or are annoyances, workarounds etc.

cheers,

rob

[Hirazi Blue]

From an earlier post…

If you have nothing solid to post here, stay away with personal feelings about this.”

@Rork – I’m afraid this thread needs a little intervention and reluctantly I will take the bait. I agree that dwigfor started this thread to get some feedback on using “Windows 8”, primarily with Softimage. When someone starts a thread on the topic of “Windows 8”, however, some negative comments on Microsoft and/or the decisions made by them when conceiving “Windows 8” are to be expected. I’m aware this can turn ugly very quickly, but it doesn’t have to. You acting as if YOU decide where this thread should or shouldn’t go, isn’t helpful in preventing this from turning ugly either, I’m afraid. So while your opinion is very clear and appreciated, you're "coming on a bit strong" IMHO.

[Rork]

I know that new versions of Windows can deliver strong feelings, but the original question was genuine.

So I'll stop my 'preaching' and stay away from this thread. I tried....

rob

[ActionArt]

And people who are 'going to get an Apple'. That doesn't help you much in the "it's my computer" area ;)

Hehe...that's funny and so true.

Time will tell if Win8 is any good for workstations. I'll be interested to hear from those that try it but I'm not going to be the first. Someone with more patience can have that honor. I've had my share of OS adventure in the past.

I'm not sure about the new interface but I'm not a fan of the Win7 taskbar that you can't get rid of either so we'll see. It really does appear it's designed for toys, not workstations. I really wish they would make two truly separate products to address each.

[dwigfor]

What have I started?!?

"I really wish they would make two truly separate products to address each."

But Touch is such a big feature of Windows 8. I'm curious how developers might embrace that. Zoom, pan, rotate around scenes would probably be fairly easy to implement.

I'm surprised at the number of laptops with touchscreens @ launch. Really impressive. I've wanted to get a touch monitor for awhile, but there were very few to choose from. Hopefully they become more common, cheaper.

Side note: A long dream of mine is to scan in all my piano sheet music books and be able to flip pages with a drag of a finger. If they had an app for SurfaceRT that could display midi songs as notes that would automatically scroll along, allowing you to control the tempo, transpose, etc., I'd probably buy one tomorrow.

I do wonder if first releasing the RT version might hurt Surface. How much will it turn people off when they learn they can't run regular Windows programs on it, especially after they purchase it? I can already see the news headlines... And it's only Wifi; no cellular! Especially with the RT version, wouldn't you want to use it on the go? I'm waiting for Pro version....

Going back to Gabe Newell/Valve, is it even possible for a Steam on W8RT? Or Amazon AppStore, etc? Do all apps have to be purchased at MS app store; no external 3rd party. Is that the same with iOS? I've had Android phone for last 2 years, which allows for 3rd party app purchases; am I spoiled? How can developers test out their stuff on a RT device? For XNA, would they have to join the Creator's Club, such as appears to be the case now with WP7.5, besides X360. Well, hopefully Steam can still function, face a little competition from app store (curious how EA Origin has fared against Steam), and have even better Steam Sales!! Competition is good.

I'm ready for a new phone and was going to purchase Nokia 920, but learned both that and the HTC 8X don't have expandable microsd! WTF?

Thanks for this discussion. And please don't bow out, Rork. I've appreciated your input, as well as everyone elses. I think some of my questions were probably already answered and I don't want to hear it..... (running self created external programs on W8RT)

[Letterbox]

First what does win8 offer a desktop or laptop user? Not much as really.

Consider apple's position, they have a ui that IS different for tablet/phone than desktop/laptop they have clearly seen that the device dictates the os, not the other way round.

I think microsoft hasn't realized that these devices are not all the same, and we do different things with them. One size does not fit all.

Forcing a tablet system on a desktop/laptop is rather pointless as there is for the vast majority no touch screen, and that touch system, is not a high productivity based os (imagine SI with no keyboard shortcuts). If you've used metro you understand that the gestures (inc the login screen/ horiz scrolling ) are completely designed for a tablet/touch, that is not the case for a workstation and a mouse.

Interestingly they have the swiping from left to right... but what about countries where languages go the other way?

No doubt they will offer in a short while a 'downgrade' to win 7, or we'll all move to win server - they wont dare metro that - oh dear they did - time to get out my minority report gloves.

[bottleofram]

Count me as another one interested to hear from anyone using windows 8 on a workstation machine. Particularly on how this new UI elements (corners, sensitive areas, charm bar, etc.) play on a multi monitor setup. From what i see, it looks like it could be intrusive and somewhat annoying on a desktop machine.

Personally, my impression of W8 is, it's a touch-centric 10inch-screen mobile OS that just so happens to be built on top of something that used to be a desktop OS. Rork is quite right to argue that things change, adjustments need to be made, nothing new there... But i really think this OS is not intended to be used with a mouse. And i cant see us leaving mouse any time soon... unfortunately for our health...

[dwigfor]

Particularly on how this new UI elements (corners, sensitive areas, charm bar, etc.) play on a multi monitor setup.

I'm also curious if they've improve Snap to work with multimonitors. At work, I use multimonitor with a Cintiq. Unfortunately in Windows7, I can't snap on the sides between my monitors.

[Falam]

Particularly on how this new UI elements (corners, sensitive areas, charm bar, etc.) play on a multi monitor setup.

I'm also curious if they've improve Snap to work with multimonitors. At work, I use multimonitor with a Cintiq. Unfortunately in Windows7, I can't snap on the sides between my monitors.

I got Windows8 installed, it's not bad the PDF viewer is nice, fast. I have to adjust some things, access control panel I have to remember, the start button, gone. Everything else so far is the same.

What Cintiq do you use ?