the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

[luceric]

@Luc-Eric:
Heres one im dying to find out about but it is, admittedly, a long shot... Does the profit an autodesk product makes have a direct connection with its development budget? It would make sense it does but reading a thread on max forums i noticed one post where Kenneth Pimentel seems to suggest this is not the case. Ill try to get a direct quote if necessary, but essentially it is implied that max does not have the biggest finances despite being the most profitable M&E application.

totally off topic, but I'd be interested to see that quote! (perhaps PM it to me?) it sounds totally nonsensical. Ken sometime goes into weird comments when arguing with users..

[Mathaeus]

Heres one im dying to find out about but it is, admittedly, a long shot... Does the profit an autodesk product makes have a direct connection with its development budget? It would make sense it does but reading a thread on max forums i noticed one post where Kenneth Pimentel seems to suggest this is not the case. Ill try to get a direct quote if necessary, but essentially it is implied that max does not have the biggest finances despite being the most profitable M&E application. Well, its pretty obvious where im going with this...

When we are about frustrations...

Well there is some kind of urban legend, that, instead of investing in development of Max, AD went with Maya and Softimage acquisition. At least, I've heard this same story from much more than one Max owner, through years. Also, famous interview with mr. Marc Petit about project Skyline, generally supports this legend. 'we appreciate our cash cow, but this project is Maya centric..."
In times of Maya acquisition. Maya Nucleus was 'meant to be for other AD products too', but nothing of that 'other' in all these years.

Anyway it's really funny how AD guys are talking about each other "he is going into weird comments", and so, but each of them still expects us to believe in his words.

Of course I believe only to Luc-Eric and Bellsey

[Bellsey]

I think Marc sums it for me, so I'll skip that.
Besides, personally I've never thought of Max as a tool for games dev anyway. I worked in games for over 10 years and never used it once, and I knew many people who hated it. Still do, lol.

Interesting about Nucleus though, because I come across people who still don't really know what Nucleus actually is. Or they basically think its something that its not. I've shown ICE stuff to people and I hear "oh yeah, that's just like Nucleus in Maya"
Now I wonder if you could take ICE and put the Nucleus solver in there?

[Clappy]

I have been lurking on here for a while and this thread finally prompted me register. My first professional foray into 3D was in VFX using Maya, but have spent the past 3-4 years reinventing myself as modeling and texture artist. These areas are not exactly Maya's forte, so being on the Autodesk edu program I gave Softimage a shot. I instantly gravitated to the simplicity of the workflows and out-of-box completeness of the software. It really is a pleasure to use. But, despite this, I never fully jumped the Maya ship and here are the main reasons:

1) Pessimism - the doom and gloom cloud that hangs over the two main Softimage sites does not encourage potential new users to commit to a product when their future or current employ-ability may be at stake. For example, if the bulk of seasoned professional Softimage users are worried about its future, than why should I, a newcomer, be optimistic?

2) No transparency - Autodesk could quell this suspicion quite easily by openly discussing the roadmap for Softimages future like they have done with 3DS Max and XBR, or project Skyline and Maya. Instead, they default to "we can't legally discuss our plans". So why than is the Max team allowed? They are careful not to discuss "features", but they are completely open about their plans in broad areas. So clearly, ADSK is allowed to discuss the roadmap for a product, so long as they operate within some legal boundaries. Yet another reason to be frustrated.

3) Recent events - Softimage developers moving to Maya shortly after they get a new node editor means something like ICE will probably be in Maya soon. If there is nothing to differentiate Softimage than why choose it over Maya or Max? Master Zap joining the Max team for MR integration and no love for Softimage or Maya, but most Maya studios use PRMan so I get it. Softimage team gets shipped to Singapore....... Nothing against Singapore, but the optics of this move do not help dimiss the perception that Softimage is not a priority. Edit: this is not meant to suggest that Singapore is 2nd rate, but if you knew your user base was worried about the future, does shipping its development team to a relatively unknown country to many seem like a great idea?

Number two for me is the big one. The openess of the XBR project demonstrates that ADSK have a lot more leeway in discussing future plans than some reps claim. The fact that they could end the speculation by being more open fuels the uncertainty and frustration.

Anyhow, I would choose Softimage in a second if I knew that ADSK had a longterm vision for the product simular to that of Maya and Max.

Cheers,
Matt

[Bellsey]

2) No transparency - Autodesk could quell this suspicion quite easily by openly discussing the roadmap for Softimages future like they have done with 3DS Max and XBR, or project Skyline and Maya. Instead, they default to "we can't legally discuss our plans". So why than is the Max team allowed? They are careful not to discuss "features", but they are completely open about their plans in broad areas. So clearly, ADSK is allowed to discuss the roadmap for a product, so long as they operate within some legal boundaries. Yet another reason to be frustrated.

Ok, my take on this is still the same as I have always said, we can't discuss product roadmaps. And though it appears that Max and Maya have, in fact they haven't. There are no specifics around features, workflows, when they will appear and also release dates.
XBR was/is basically an intention, an initiative, but there's nothing specific and guaranteed about when things will be done, and if they will be done, apart from the fact they were thinking of doing something. So everything is all very loose and very light on details , but even then they tread a fine line and there's many disclaimers in place.

I know it sounds easy to say Max does it, so why don't the others, but it's a tricky balancing act. We've all seen how easy, even with a simple 'please dont read too much into it', people inevitably do. So maybe the other teams are perhaps abit cautious on how things might be read? As for why Max do it, I don't know. It's not that they're 'allowed' to do it, and others aren't, maybe they feel they have to?. I basically follow the product guys on this, if they feel the need to be more open on the products I specialise in, then I follow their lead.

Regarding Skyline specifically, that's an internal project, and that's all it is right now. It's not a product and it could even change dramatically before it maybe appears on the market.

As for Maya's Node Editor, well it's early days and it's a long way before it becomes ICE, if it becomes ICE. It doesn't even have quite the same functionality as Maya's Hypershade & Hypergraph yet, so I wonder if those areas might be a good place to start first. At present I see it as a better Connection Editor.
And the whole thing about Softimage devs working on it, well Chinny did explain all that on the list, but if you're looking at incorporating a node-based workflow, which package would you look at?

[Clappy]

Thanks for the reply Graham. I think where we are split is on the value of what the XBR pr does.

What the XBR webinars and openness demonstrated to Max users was "Hey, don't worry, Max is not going anywhere, we are fully committed to its development, we can't say what the features will be, but here is a taste of what you can expect." Remember, even Max users were worried about ADSK merging all the apps into one package. But now they know, Max is not going anywhere.

As for which node based product I would choose today, Maya or Softimage? Of course Softimage, if that were my only concern. What concerns me more however, is which of the two products is a better long term investment. Totally different answer. And that is based on the perception that ADSK is more committed to Maya and whatever advantages Softimage currently has in some areas are only temporary. Again, these perceptions, right or wrong, are based on what I see.

Anyhow, I am just trying to offer a point of view from someone new(ish) to Softimage and what concerns I would have as a prospective buyer.

Cheers,
Matt

[gustavoeb]

I always wanted to comment on the XBR thing... It really makes most arguments about openess empty. They have showed a lot of stuff like User Interface mockups, where they are commiting theyre resourcers, what is theyre vision of the future. Maybe that is not very specific but it is really good at calming people down and reassuring stuff is being taken care of. The Uservoice things also "looks" great.
But we do really read too much into stuff, and there is probably some level of disincouragement in any initiatives of this sort due to that.

OT: XSIBase should try getting an interview with Chung-Pong... just a random thought

[bottleofram]

well Chinny did explain all that on the list

I did not see any explanation from Chinny. Could you possibly provide a link or a quote?

if you're looking at incorporating a node-based workflow, which package would you look at?

This is an interesting question, though. I would spin it around a little to get closer to the problem. If you're looking to try and develop a more Houdini-esque node-based data manipulation/creation system, which package would you develop it for? I think this is what it all comes down to. IF we see mayas node editor grow more and more in that direction, it is a clear sign that AD finally got sick of loosing bits and peaces of VFX market (which was and will stay mayas ground) every year in favor of Houdini.

The thing with that is, it will take many years for maya to get there so immediate future of softimage is safe. In long term, however, this is definitely gonna be the sickest joke AD has played on SI users, no competition. That is, of course, if Softimage doesnt come up with another killer feature (what are the chances?) that will advertise itself by itself (for AD seems incapable of it).

Speculation, but what did you expect? Last couple of posts said it all. Theres no reason why there cant be at least some vague information about what are the plans for SI.

And just like Clappy, i was amazed what joy it is to work with soft - something i could never dream of experiencing with maya. As i said, ICE is only one feature that makes Soft excellent. I didn't even start using ICE until the last couple of months.

It will be a big defeat for me, personally, if Soft gets lost and eaten somewhere down the road...

[gaboraa]

Maya is the future then? I really don't want to use that crappy software but it seems Autodesk won't give most of us another choice. If ICE like environment will be developed for Maya, all of us are supposed to use Maya as our primary 3d software from now on because, on the ICE side, we won't receive love from Autodesk.

[Hirazi Blue]

1) Pessimism - the doom and gloom cloud that hangs over the two main Softimage sites does not encourage potential new users to commit to a product when their future or current employ-ability may be at stake.

@Clappy - The Softimage related communities often seem quite pessimistic, it's true. But that's only part of the story, I guess. We're all quite passionate about Softimage and when you combine that passion with a lot of bad PR moments (stuff that might not even have been so bad, but was badly communicated to the user base) over the years, a somewhat pessimistic/cynical tone can't be helped I'm afraid. What newcomers/outsiders tend to overlook, however, is that the "doom and gloom" only makes up a small part of the user activity on forums. Threads like this one are perhaps more high-profile, but they tend to distort the focus away from a very active and helpful user base...
;)

[brudney]

Thanks for the reply Graham. I think where we are split is on the value of what the XBR pr does.

What the XBR webinars and openness demonstrated to Max users was "Hey, don't worry, Max is not going anywhere, we are fully committed to its development, we can't say what the features will be, but here is a taste of what you can expect." Remember, even Max users were worried about ADSK merging all the apps into one package. But now they know, Max is not going anywhere.

As for which node based product I would choose today, Maya or Softimage? Of course Softimage, if that were my only concern. What concerns me more however, is which of the two products is a better long term investment. Totally different answer. And that is based on the perception that ADSK is more committed to Maya and whatever advantages Softimage currently has in some areas are only temporary. Again, these perceptions, right or wrong, are based on what I see.

Anyhow, I am just trying to offer a point of view from someone new(ish) to Softimage and what concerns I would have as a prospective buyer.

Cheers,
Matt

Quoted for total and absolute agreement :]

[Bellsey]

@clappy, No I agree with you. XBR has done a good job for informing Max users. I do wish that Autodesk would do more in this area with some of its other products, but that's not my call.

[Nizar]

I'm start to thinking seriously AD marketing people read these pages and doing everything to get our day wrong:

http://area.autodesk.com/togetheratlast

"The Ultimate Dynamic Duo"?

And:

Since the acquisition of Alias, people have wondered where the relationship between Maya and 3ds Max is heading.

Would they fight to the death?

Or… Would they unite in one of the most powerful software packages the 3D world has ever seen?

Why not a similar page for Sotimage? and Why not "The ultimate dynamic TRIO"?

[gustavoeb]

lol

"Like Mario and Luigi, Woody and Buzz, or Batman and Robin, Maya and 3ds Max are together at last." (laughing scarcastically)
mmmmmmkay

[Nizar]

lol

"Like Mario and Luigi, Woody and Buzz, or Batman and Robin, Maya and 3ds Max are together at last." (laughing scarcastically)
mmmmmmkay

Maxio and Luaya? "Luaya" don't sound so well... I think they must cage the name, something that can work together better

foe me have 3dsm and maya (and softimage), has not so much sense... I think is different for a big studio... also, the image of the package (with the applications logo) remember me some super market ice cream discount package...

[Hirazi Blue]

Well the Germans already have a duo that seems fitting:
Max & Moritz (based on a classic story by Wilhelm Busch)

PS They come to a quite horrific end, BTW. ;)