Mentalray EOL

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Mathaeus
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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Mathaeus » 21 Nov 2017, 01:08

luceric wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 01:01 the exact same renderer in 3dsmax and Maya apparently killed softimage. wow. Only in the messagebord alternate reality.
It never ever was *only* renderer in these two, especially it wasn't only available, as you probably know. Could you buy a copy, if we are talking about 'reality'.

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Bullit » 21 Nov 2017, 01:50

luceric wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 01:01 the exact same renderer in 3dsmax and Maya apparently killed softimage. wow. Only in the messagebord alternate reality.
Maya and 3DMax like Mathaeus says had alternatives. If you went around Max market - i don't know much about Maya - most companies i knew never once opened Mentalray despite being there always. It wasn't even considered. Many companies opened first decade of XXI century by just making 2-3 considerations regarding DCC software: license cost/ render engine quality - ease of use - "can i have that image quality in how much time and how many render slaves it requires"/ talent available to hire.

This pretty much put Softimage out of picture for most. Max got most Architectural market due to Vray- and i can assure you it wasn't because it had any good Autocad import capabilities! - Cinema 4D got most of broadcast market spots after while.

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Bullit » 21 Nov 2017, 01:57

Actually Mentalray only arrived to Max a couple years after Vray arrived. Max survived due to Vray, because the scanline was only thing they had and what GI attempts they tried to develop failed. By 2004 Max relied in Vray alone. And it was enough.

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Mathaeus » 21 Nov 2017, 02:13

Bullit wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 01:50 i don't know much about Maya -
Afaik, small Maya shops are on V-Ray, mainly, some Red Shift here and there. In past, what helped Maya to be in position where still is today, we all know, it is Renderman connection. While ago, Maya MR liked to display well known message about wrong geometry supplied to MR - not because they were unable to fix this - it was everything set to fit to Renderman, not MR.

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by FXDude » 21 Nov 2017, 02:20

Mathaeus wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 01:06
FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 00:26 Hum.. MR was SI killer?
:-j
Exactly it was reason for me to finally start leaving SI
Probably really only you because of that,
some others the moment SI was baught out, many others when it was retired... while also many stayed regardless.... because........... (of naustagia? :-? )
FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 00:38 ... probably best to use other renders for animated GI, MR otherwise works fine (and very flexible) for a ton of stuff.
...including for all sorts of passes for use with different renderers,
and "toony" things isn't only about ink lines (which can effectively be done in OGL real time),
but "toony" involving just basic lighting, incidence mixed rimlights, and AO.
Last edited by FXDude on 21 Nov 2017, 02:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Bullit » 21 Nov 2017, 02:25

I was more on Maya 2002 to 2010 period Mathaeus.

I also remembered one of the failed Max attempts to get GI by itself when they ported the Lightscape radiosity engine. Anyone remembers Lightscape?

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by FXDude » 21 Nov 2017, 02:34

Bullit wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 02:25 Anyone remembers Lightscape?
You mean the innovative radiosity solution that was baught (killed) and "integrated" in Max? :p

(as much as XSI was "integrated" in Maya?)

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Bullit » 21 Nov 2017, 03:01

Ah you remember, it was first time i played with IES files, that was standalone. This was around 2000. It was really killedgrated into Max. But i think they just ported half of it before giving up.

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Mathaeus » 21 Nov 2017, 10:16

FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 02:34
You mean the innovative radiosity solution that was baught (killed) and "integrated" in Max? :p

You probably don't know, that 3d studio Max had its rendering API from day one. "Even renderer as plugin" was a part of advertising of 3d studio Max 1. Basically, developers were able to build their renderer on top of built-in solutions. Early V-Ray was exactly that, so it took some time for them to create anything portable to another app. If I'm correct, Lightscape was an exception of that API. While yeah, what you are calling ''integration'', it wasn't so shiny as XSI render preview, passes and such - in practice, this allowed Max to do not rely on any particular rendering solution, anytime. While SI team wasted a huge time to build superstructures on top of solution they never had under control, also they locked out the app onto that solution.
Rest is history....

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Mathaeus » 21 Nov 2017, 10:30

FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 02:20
Mathaeus wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 01:06
FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 00:26 Hum.. MR was SI killer?
:-j
Exactly it was reason for me to finally start leaving SI
Probably really only you because of that,
some others the moment SI was baught out, many others when it was retired... while also many stayed regardless.... because........... (of naustagia? :-? )
FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 00:38 ... probably best to use other renders for animated GI, MR otherwise works fine (and very flexible) for a ton of stuff.
Yes, really only because of that. For some time, it was possible to avoid rendering, as long as colleague, Lightwave user, was ready to hold this part, later it was something else that helped, however nothing of that was for forever. 2012 when I become Modo user, Modo forums were full of former SI users, having a similar experience.
And yeah, it was ''Arnold factor'', as reason for exodus too - at some point, it was an unreachable Arnold everywhere, even in official videos. For comparison, no one 3d Studio Max demo in history of 3ds Max, used any 3rd party solution in official presentation - it was Softimage's illness, to use what does not belong to him - or at least they believed they can do that, without consequences...

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by FXDude » 21 Nov 2017, 14:46

Like you'd see all the same shots in reels of different Siggraph booths? :p
( not always inappropriately though, because several apps were often used to to do different things in the same shots)

Mathaeus wrote:2012 when I become Modo user, Modo forums were full of former SI users, having a similar experience.
And yeah, it was ''Arnold factor'', as reason for exodus too - at some point, it was an unreachable Arnold everywhere, even in official videos.
Well, I'm still pretty sure any exodus (to Modo or otherwise) didn't mostly have to do with MR or Arnold factors
(hum.. to what else could it mostly be related to...),
and the ones that stayed typically just went with Redshift. (quick, very prod ready and accessible)

Otherwise now in Max (at least for archviz) using some other renderer became almost a requirement
(like Vray.. being essentially like another Mental Ray),
because the (partially) included (and pricey) one will likely take forever to render your interior.



BTW, just by curiosity, after you did kristinka (in XSI 2004 :p ), ... Modo, Maya LT, Houdini, In what do you do 3D nowadays?
Perhaps all of those?  Because ALL of those   (or exporting/importing to/from -some- combination of multiple things)
is what's typically involved in "replacing" XSI.

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Mathaeus » 21 Nov 2017, 16:48

FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 14:46
BTW, just by curiosity, after you did kristinka (in XSI 2004 :p ), ... Modo, Maya LT, Houdini, In what do you do 3D nowadays?
Perhaps all of those?  Because ALL of those   (or exporting/importing to/from -some- combination of multiple things)
is what's typically involved in "replacing" XSI.
Some animation / rigging work in Maya, for games, Mocap and related things. No any significant rendering for a long time - that's something I owe to MR in some way, it pushed me to change the carrier and finally learn something about another fields. If there's some rendering for fun, that's Houdini Mantra - you know, Mantra is 'little Arnold' :).

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Bullit » 21 Nov 2017, 18:29

FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 14:46
Otherwise now in Max (at least for archviz) using some other renderer became almost a requirement
(like Vray.. being essentially like another Mental Ray),
because the (partially) included (and pricey) one will likely take forever to render your interior.

You aren't listening. Already became requirement by year 2003 to use Vray in Max. One of reasons no one gave a crap about Mentalray in Max is because Mentalray arrived there after Vray was a well established solution.
And yes it looks like Mentalray for Softimage but with some essential distinction - Max render API was opened to anyone while Softimage they had to change a lot of stuff to have Vray- so in Max if Vray died for any reason, another could take its place.
Second Vray remained competitive something that Mentalray couldn´t.
So the Softimage problem isn't that Mentalray was there but that only Mentalray could be there.

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by FXDude » 21 Nov 2017, 19:51

Ok! nothing I said discounts what you said (or vice versa) so all is good
Was merely highlighting the fact that MR was included (including rendering on many machines),
while being very similar to VRay in many respects.
(the new "partially included one" was referring to Arnold for interiors)

Mathaeus wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 16:48
FXDude wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 14:46
BTW, just by curiosity, after you did kristinka (in XSI 2004 :p ), ... Modo, Maya LT, Houdini, In what do you do 3D nowadays?
Perhaps all of those? Because ALL of those (or exporting/importing to/from -some- combination of multiple things)
is what's typically involved in "replacing" XSI.
Some animation / rigging work in Maya, for games, Mocap and related things. No any significant rendering for a long time - that's something I owe to MR in some way, it pushed me to change the carrier and finally learn something about another fields. If there's some rendering for fun, that's Houdini Mantra - you know, Mantra is 'little Arnold' :).
Cool B-)

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by Bullit » 21 Nov 2017, 20:41

Well the point is that Mentalray contributed to Softimage demise by the way that Softimage development team put themselves in hands of Mentalray vagaries. Why production shaders didn't arrived much earlier to Softimage for example?

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Re: Mentalray EOL

Post by FXDude » 21 Nov 2017, 21:51

Perhaps...
perhaps also along with Ptex support, some thing we got to work by including DLL's from MR's standalone build..
but any of that was at best completely drwafed by other pretty extra-outrageous decisions in regards to essentially the only other long standing general purpose DCC
(with particularly unique features and aspects) that wasn't Maya in VFX shops around.

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