Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

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FXDude
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by FXDude » 27 Nov 2017, 05:54

Hey Jon,

Did you first try explosia in XSI when it came out?

(I haven't gotten round to it yet with all spare time going in my own releases, but can't wait!)

If so, perhaps enough for a comparative review?

jamination
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by jamination » 27 Nov 2017, 14:50

while this topic is hot, and the special price is time dependent would anyone care to compare how c4d mograph compares to maya mash.

thanks
Phil Harbath
Jamination Productions

Bullit
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by Bullit » 27 Nov 2017, 17:22

I don't know mash, but C4d mograph since it is so integrated is difficult to say where it starts and ends. You have procedural and dynamics, you even can tell how much % of dynamics affect. For example you have what they call modestly voronoi fracture but it is much more than that and integrates with Mograph. Mograph also integrates with deformers, so you can use a bend deformer to change a Mograph simulation and give more or less effect to simulation and more to deformer and vice versa.

jonmoore
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by jonmoore » 27 Nov 2017, 17:49

jamination wrote: 27 Nov 2017, 14:50 while this topic is hot, and the special price is time dependent would anyone care to compare how c4d mograph compares to maya mash.

thanks
Maya Mash may have originally been inspired by Mograph but it's developed into it's own particular flavour of aceness. But Mograph is still the more refined of the two.

Although Mograph has seen no major upgrades since it's introduction (more than 10 years ago) it's the one aspect of C4D that's incrementally been improved year after year. This makes it exceptionally robust as well as full featured. The real magic comes in mixing Mograph with X-Particles, that leaves Mash lagging behind both in terms of creative potential and pure grunt performance. Much of MASH is single threaded, as is most of Maya's particles and dynamics toolsets Mash integrates with; but X-Particles is fully threaded.

Whilst C4D lags behind Maya for character animation workflows, it has a far superior UX/UI workflow and Mograph and X-Particles in combination is as close to ICE as it gets. This is a very subjective view, but I also consider C4D to be a far more XSI type user experience. Once you familiarise yourself with it's own UI/UX idiosyncrasies, it's an exceptionally artist friendly package to use, and is so robust crashes are usually only the result of user error.

Bullit
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by Bullit » 27 Nov 2017, 19:04

C4D Mograph can be considered a particle system too. You can add trace objects to clones, etc...

Bullit
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by Bullit » 28 Nov 2017, 13:15


jamination
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by jamination » 07 Dec 2017, 18:29

I invested in C4d Broadcast mainly for Mograph, I really like ICE for this, however, I imagine there will be pluses and minus with MG. I interested in anyone has picked up X particles 4 and their first impressions.

thanks
Phil Harbath
Jamination Productions

jonmoore
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by jonmoore » 07 Dec 2017, 20:12

jamination wrote: 07 Dec 2017, 18:29 I invested in C4d Broadcast mainly for Mograph, I really like ICE for this, however, I imagine there will be pluses and minus with MG. I interested in anyone has picked up X particles 4 and their first impressions.

thanks
I picked it up and it's great. X-Particles is most definitely influenced by ICE and in particular the work of Eric Mootz. Many of the modifiers are direct parallels of functionality Eric provided via his various Soft addons. In truth, they're refined versions of Eric's addons as they're created as part of a well designed ecosystem. The major difference is that the C4D Object Manager is a very different workflow to the nodal approach of ICE. This definitely takes getting used to but has many advantages as well as negatives. The main negative is that complex scenes are often easier to keep track of in ICE if you're visually minded (enjoy mind mapping and such like). That's not to say you can't keep on top of things in the C4D Object Manager, as it also has many strengths, the primary of which is it's ability to communicate lot's of information extremely efficiently through it's nesting structures and tags. But it takes getting used to and you have to be disciplined as you build your scenes when it comes to sensible naming conventions and suchlike.

X-Particles 4 is so much more than a particles system (much like ICE); I'd go so far as to say that it's virtual DCC within a host DCC it's so powerful. There's an awful lot to learn but it comes with the best help system I've ever encountered. Every area of functionality is covered by both a video manual (completely remade for XP 4) and a contextually accessible written manual (with example scene files for all key areas of functionality). I'll link to both below.

As I've migrated away from Soft I've become a huge fan of Houdini but X-Particles makes many Houdini effects possible in a far more artist friendly fashion. Houdini is ultimately more flexible as it's effectively a 3d operating system with multiple programming interfaces. But the X-Particles system is so cleverly designed that for all but the the most demanding TD's of this world (primarily working on FX for features and big budget TV) it delivers a wealth of creative opportunity.

The main negative I've encountered so far is that Redshift integration is as yet clumsy in comparison to Cycles 4D and Octane. Cycles 4d makes up for Redshifts current weaknesses and is definitely worth the price (even considering Cycles is a free product); the X-Particles integration is great and improving all the time (in a few weeks a Cycles 4d update is coming which will provide native Explosia rendering without the need for first exporting to VDB). I've also found the XP FLIP stuff a lttle slow in comparison to Houdini and Realflow, but to be honest I don't see much reason to use FLIP within X-Particles as a Houdini customer. Houdini also feels more robust with particle counts in the multi-million.

All in all X-Particles is the final part of the jigsaw that was missing for me as part of my long term replacement strategy for Softimage. C4D isn't as strong as Softimage when it comes to asset creation (modelling, UVs, texturing, painting etc), luckily I have Modo for that, so that doesn't bother me. But X-Particles fills the ICE hole. Houdini should have been the ICE replacement (and for many others, it is that replacement) but X-Particles is simply a more artist focused solution. That's not to say, it's not technical (any simulation toolset requires science as well as artistry) but it feels far closer to an creative effects 'paintbrush' than Houdini will ever be for all it's raw power.

http://docs.x-particles.net/index.php

https://insydium.ltd/support/video-manu ... eo-manual/

jamination
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by jamination » 07 Dec 2017, 23:20

you mentioned x-particles has a filmsy connection with Redshift, could you go into more detail with that, or maybe you were talking about c4d in general (with redshift). That is one thing I need, as I am dependent on it.
Phil Harbath
Jamination Productions

jonmoore
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by jonmoore » 07 Dec 2017, 23:41

The C4D Redshift plugin is pretty decent. It's not as mature as the Maya, Softimage or Houdini plugins but it has feature parity with regards to the 'core' RS engine. The places that need refinement are places where it requires bespoke functionality for C4D/plugin features unique to the platform.

X-Particles is the main area where I've noticed things not being as smooth as I would Ideally like. The main issue right now is that there's a lot of tinkering of 'User Data' to get particle data into a format that can be used as part of the RS shading process. It's more a user experience thing than lacking functionality.

Redshift is winning a lot of fans in the C4D community. Folk like Greyscalegorilla are getting behind it and major C4D creative shops like Aixsponza and Manvsmachine are now using it as their main GPU production renderer.

Bullit
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by Bullit » 08 Dec 2017, 00:05

Experiences with Redshift and new X Particles in Cgsociety seems very good it is very fast with Explosia http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread. ... ost8360446 while the C4D native renderer failed- long build times- Redshift could render in seconds VDB's made by Explosia.

Edit, talking about Redshift they will get Nvidia Denoiser.


jonmoore
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by jonmoore » 08 Dec 2017, 00:26

@bullet. I've been keeping tabs on that cgsociety thread and it's no wonder the Redshift renders where quick - they're not particularly good. :) (the smoke looks more like solid resin).

But more to the point VDB rendering is a native Redshift feature once the VDB has been exported from Explosia/X-Particles (much the same as it is in Softimage).

Cycles 4D will render Explosia effects directly from X-Particles when the new update is released in the coming weeks. Right now Cycles 4D is a far better rendering partner to X-Particles but Redshift has the potential to be a far better partner in the long run. However you'll still want Krakatoa for many particle effects as GPU renderers suck at good old fashioned point rendering. Luckily Krakatoa is only $500 in C4D (half the Max/Maya price) and it integrates beautifully with X-Particles. With X-Particles being fully threaded you'll cache out multi-million particle sims a multitude of times quicker with Krakatoa and XP that with either Max or Maya particles as they're still single threaded.

Bullit
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by Bullit » 08 Dec 2017, 12:14

Thanks for the info about Karakatoa Jon. Yeah i agree the smoke that i have seen is not tops.

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FXDude
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by FXDude » 08 Dec 2017, 23:01

Bullit wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 12:14 Thanks for the info about Karakatoa Jon. Yeah i agree the smoke that i have seen is not tops.
Wait t'ill you see some of the things well be putting out soon (RS rendered XplosiaFX generated VDB's)

jonmoore
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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by jonmoore » 09 Dec 2017, 11:16

FXDude wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 23:01
Bullit wrote: 08 Dec 2017, 12:14 Thanks for the info about Karakatoa Jon. Yeah i agree the smoke that i have seen is not tops.
Wait t'ill you see some of the things well be putting out soon (RS rendered XplosiaFX generated VDB's)
Looking forward to it. I've used Explosia extensively in Softimage so know what it's capable of. It's nice to have the same set of features with a great artist focussed UX. My only main negative is that I find Explosia in X-Particles to be slow once you crank things up to reasonable resolutions. I've got used to the GPU accelerated fluid based effects in Houdini so really hoping the X-Particles team have OpenCL acceleration targeted at some point in the future too.

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Re: Explosia FX now in C4D X Particles V4 plugin

Post by Bullit » 09 Dec 2017, 15:20

Good news FXDude

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