Houdini Indie Teaser

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McNistor
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by McNistor » 14 Aug 2014, 09:41

Pooby wrote:Houdini is designed to be a fully procedural tool where anything can be altered after the fact, and modelling by hand doesn't really suit that modus operandi.
I suspect that as Houdini moves forward, it will allow such discrepencies to seep in, for the greater good.
I don't agree with this statement - Houdini being bad for modeling has nothing to do with its procedural nature. It's about how selections, interaction and the modeling tools work most of the time. "modeling by hand" is possible to be optimized in a fully procedural env. as there's no discrepancy, I see no reason for why shouldn't this be the case.
Houdini 14 is looking good so far and I'm sure so will future versions, I wish I could say more...
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Bullit
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Bullit » 14 Aug 2014, 13:37

I don't see how modeling by hand is a discrepancy.

If it was that we would have to say that rendering is a discrepancy over the modeling part in any application.

And i think if Houdini doesn't get out of being only procedural they will have much difficulty in the future since others will start to get procedural and the two capabilities are better than just one as we see with Softimage.

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MauricioPC
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by MauricioPC » 14 Aug 2014, 14:32

McNistor wrote:Houdini 14 is looking good so far and I'm sure so will future versions, I wish I could say more...
Do tell us more! :P
Bullit wrote:And i think if Houdini doesn't get out of being only procedural they will have much difficulty in the future since others will start to get procedural and the two capabilities are better than just one as we see with Softimage.
I don't think it'll be that easy. Maya is under Autodesk for how long and it's very much a destructive workflow. Max has way better proceduralism.

Pooby
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Pooby » 14 Aug 2014, 16:21

McNistor wrote:
Pooby wrote:Houdini is designed to be a fully procedural tool where anything can be altered after the fact, and modelling by hand doesn't really suit that modus operandi.
I suspect that as Houdini moves forward, it will allow such discrepencies to seep in, for the greater good.
I don't agree with this statement - Houdini being bad for modeling has nothing to do with its procedural nature. It's about how selections, interaction and the modeling tools work most of the time. "modeling by hand" is possible to be optimized in a fully procedural env. as there's no discrepancy, I see no reason for why shouldn't this be the case.
Houdini 14 is looking good so far and I'm sure so will future versions, I wish I could say more...
I just mean that when modelling, you dont always want to have everything live. Sometimes you want 'destructive' behaviour. I was under the impression that Houdini never 'freezes' geometry and keeps all operators running live.
And I thought, (its only a thought. I'm no authority on it) that Houdini may benefit from implementing this, if they havent done already for the benefit of making it easier to pick up and make assets with, even if it doesnt fit the fully procedural approach.

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McNistor
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by McNistor » 14 Aug 2014, 20:02

You can RMB on an object when in SOP level and choose Delete history. You can collapse nodes in subnets and you can also save objects on disk and read them from there.
I'm also by no means a Houdini master (barely started diving into it) so my jargon might be off and I'm too lazy to check it so there might even be more options for not having your modeling history stalking you and slowing your scene and workflow down.
The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
-Thucydides

pcd
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by pcd » 22 Aug 2014, 14:10

Mathaeus wrote: ....Please don't run in this again, please don't turn Houdini thread into into 'pcd against the rest of world' thread. I said "applying". To explain more in detail, it is about already prepared mocap by someone else. Exactly in same way as tons of mocap data were applied to Max biped, and exported to game engines, through decades.
Never laughed so hard in a long time. Well, "already prepared mocap by someone else", someone needs to 'prepare' that MOCAP for you to use it einstein and guess what? Your beloved Maya crap can't do it. In fact the only app with built inn MOCAP support was XSI(excluding MotionBuilder witch costs 4,4k). Read all the post, not just parts of it. I am a studio owner and I AM THAT GUY THAT PREPARES THE MOCAP, so a 200$/year with built inn MOCAP support it's perfect for me. I would have kept my money into autodesk if they just kept selling xsi licenses. Since they killed it i NEED to find a solution. And guess what? It's not going to be autodesk anymore. Do i want to move away? NO, but i can't purchase anymore licenses so i am FORCED TO DO IT. Capisci? I will not answer to your troll posts anymore since you have obvious logic issues.

Moderator edit: THIS FEUD YOU AND MATHAEUS APPARENTLY GOT GOING ENDS HERE.
And leave the spotting of trolls to the trained professionals (AKA the Team)! - HB

Bullit
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Bullit » 22 Aug 2014, 20:36

In fact the only app with built inn MOCAP support was XSI
I'll be in close future working with mocap. Can you give a primer in what Softimage has for that?

pcd
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by pcd » 23 Aug 2014, 10:23

Bullit wrote:
In fact the only app with built inn MOCAP support was XSI
I'll be in close future working with mocap. Can you give a primer in what Softimage has for that?
Sure,
I'm glad to help whenever i can. You have two main components for that. First, you can import BVH files inside XSI, and clean the motion tracks - aka all the channels with the dopesheet tools(and there is a LOT of work to clean a BVH if it was not properly recorded, or it has to much 'noise'). If the BVH has too much noise you need to use smooth curves, and simplify inside dopesheet to correct that. Be careful not to touch the rotation channels for legs and arms where the curve often goes like 90*, just befor and after a rotation. ALWAYS check after a smooth if the motion is not distorted, and always do this for just PORTION of the motion curves at a time. You will get along with it very fast if you are used to dopesheet/animation and it's very fast to work with(just a tip: you can do this AFTER the MOTOR so you can skip a step and be productive, no need to clean BEFORE). Second is time to put that BVH to work and you have the wonderful MOTOR for this. In order to work you will need to test witch type of BVH rig will be compatible with XSI(my system records a perfect type of a BVH but you may want to double check before paying big dollars for a system, this is what i did BEFORE the purchase). So now comes the fun part. You need to tag your both rigs(BVH and your target rig) and save this tags somewhere - i save them in tags folder. Once you transfered(do not apply just yet) you have channels for each bone inside MOTOR to adjust PHB(pitch, head, banking) and XYZ for bones witch not transfered the motion ok. I used a trick witch i will give it to you too, i rigged all my characters with nulls for motion transfer and everything works like a charm. If you use bones you will enter all sorts of issues, but is doable that way too. After you are satisfied with the result hit apply on MOTOR. Sometimes you will need to adjust the final sequence using animation layers and regular animation tools inside XSI after you applied MOTOR, but this is just regular use of animation tools. You can convert to clips, bake to bones, use NLA to stitch different MOCAP sequences etc, all animation tolls inside XSI. So you don't need a perfect MOTOR transfer, just as good as you can. Then you clean and modify as you wish. Hope this helps you get started,
C

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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Bellsey » 23 Aug 2014, 12:29

When it comes to anything mocap related, I would choose Motionbuilder all the time. Yes, Soft does have MOTOR, and it's ok, but Mobu is way better and certainly more reliable. Of course as someone for Autodesk, I'm bound to say that, but I'm also basing that many years of working with mocap.

Without wising to throw a grenade into the middle of an argument, Mathaeus is right about often not having to do much with mocap data, as it's been prepared by someone else. If you use a mocap studio, more often than not, they will do the hard work of solving and the actual cleaning up of the data. So when they send you data, you shouldn't have to do much with it, in that respect. Then of course you have all the post anim work and getting the final result you need.

I would agree that in the past Maya, wasn't good at working with mocap data in the same way as Biped, Mobu, or MOTOR, because it didn't have a similar full body rigging system. But if you knew you rigging chops, you could easily build a rig so that you could import mocap onto it.
Now it's alot simple because the HIK (HumanIK) solver system as been added to Maya and MayaLT, and you can now create a rig, and retarget animations in the same that you can in Mobu. The UI has been conformed so that it's similar (if not identical) between those packages too.
For actual live mocap work, shooting and onset, etc, etc, I would still go with Mobu, but then after all the solving work, you could easily go to Maya or Max if thats your flavour.

Bullit
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Bullit » 23 Aug 2014, 12:48

Thanks pcd, also Bellsey.

pcd
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by pcd » 23 Aug 2014, 13:27

Bellsey wrote:When it comes to anything mocap related, I would choose Motionbuilder all the time. Yes, Soft does have MOTOR, and it's ok, but Mobu is way better and certainly more reliable. Of course as someone for Autodesk, I'm bound to say that, but I'm also basing that many years of working with mocap.

Without wising to throw a grenade into the middle of an argument, Mathaeus is right about often not having to do much with mocap data, as it's been prepared by someone else. If you use a mocap studio, more often than not, they will do the hard work of solving and the actual cleaning up of the data. So when they send you data, you shouldn't have to do much with it, in that respect. Then of course you have all the post anim work and getting the final result you need.

I would agree that in the past Maya, wasn't good at working with mocap data in the same way as Biped, Mobu, or MOTOR, because it didn't have a similar full body rigging system. But if you knew you rigging chops, you could easily build a rig so that you could import mocap onto it.
Now it's alot simple because the HIK (HumanIK) solver system as been added to Maya and MayaLT, and you can now create a rig, and retarget animations in the same that you can in Mobu. The UI has been conformed so that it's similar (if not identical) between those packages too.
For actual live mocap work, shooting and onset, etc, etc, I would still go with Mobu, but then after all the solving work, you could easily go to Maya or Max if thats your flavour.
Well, i can agree with you up to a point. Motion Builder is a no go for me because of budget issues, and plus i like to keep all of my eggs in one basket(XSI in this case). With other words i can only work with and deploy a single major application, considering costs involved. First, i am preparing my own data, as i have my own optical system. Second, Maya does not have anything even close to MOTOR. If, and it's a big if, you paid some studio to do your MOCAP and they come up with an already clean data, then yea, you can use Maya. But even then the tools are just not on par with MOTOR, you can't adjust your data based on each joint before commit to changes(i'm talking about offset some channels basically; this is done in MOTOR before applying your MOCAP to rig). In my particular situation Maya is of no use, and way bellow XSI - speaking of witch. Why don't autodesk takes all the best XSI has to offer and port it to Maya? I am talking about ease of use, interface(up to a point ok), GATOR, MOTOR etc? Or at least keep selling the XSI licenses? It's so hard to keep selling an application even without support? We all took time and effort to learn an application just to discover that we need to re-invest all that to a new one. This is the most frustrating and infuriating thing, that i can not license the application i invested so much into it. I am forced to change, because i can't invest in a dead application. Will not go to that rant again, but i will try to change the company this time to avoid this type of things in the future.

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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Bellsey » 23 Aug 2014, 14:21

pcd wrote:.......But even then the tools are just not on par with MOTOR, you can't adjust your data based on each joint before commit to changes(i'm talking about offset some channels basically; this is done in MOTOR before applying your MOCAP to rig). In my particular situation Maya is of no use, and way bellow XSI.........
Have you tried HumanIK in Maya?. You can do exactly what you're referring too. The retargeting is live just like it is in Mobu, because it's the same system.

pcd
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by pcd » 23 Aug 2014, 15:20

Bellsey wrote:
pcd wrote:.......But even then the tools are just not on par with MOTOR, you can't adjust your data based on each joint before commit to changes(i'm talking about offset some channels basically; this is done in MOTOR before applying your MOCAP to rig). In my particular situation Maya is of no use, and way bellow XSI.........
Have you tried HumanIK in Maya?. You can do exactly what you're referring too. The retargeting is live just like it is in Mobu, because it's the same system.
Yes, i tried HumanIK. It's subpar compared with XSI and Houdini in my humble opinion. I can't use nulls for my rig and, again, it does not allow me to adjust the offset between BVH and my rig before baking to bones. Motion Builder it is indeed very nice for MOCAP, but i don't want to pay(again) for training and licenses. So i will stick with my workflow for now. To be honest i already started to try to implement Houdini. It's going to take me a while and if this fails i will check other solutions(yea, Maya)... So far it looks like a very strong all around solution to me and i already had some great success with MOCAP part and even MIDI input(XSI has that to, as opposed to Maya) and all modulated procedural with CHOPS. And it's not only MOCAP, but also ICE witch has alternative only in Houdini vex. I will not shoot down few months of training to start all over again with Maya. Sorry Bellsey, you are a nice guy, but autodesk move with XSI made quite some of us to look elsewhere... Once i started already to get involved in changing to Houdini and budgeted that to my business there is no real chance for me to come back to autodesk land anytime soon. Never say never, but for now my money goes towards sidefx(Houdini) and most likely foundry's Modo. Nice talking to you but i got to go, i have a ton of work can't comment anymore around here. It distracts me from my job....
Thank you,
C

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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Bellsey » 23 Aug 2014, 23:11

HumanIK itself is just a solver (and a good one at that), but it's implementation into Mobu and Maya make it superior to MOTOR. It can do what you say it can't, including use nulls in a rig.
I think you're mistaken, but it's your prerogative.

cgcris
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by cgcris » 06 Sep 2014, 23:48

I have to agree with Graham here, I am die hard softimage user but if I had to do a mocap project today I would do it in Maya no doubt about it.

Not only you can do all the re-targeting, but there are also great tools to align the clips in 3D space..

This is compared to Softimage, I understand the next version of Houdini will come with some interesting character tools. It's looks like Maya wants what houdini has (procedural FX workflows) and Houdini needs the character stuff to appeal to the masses..

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McNistor
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Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by McNistor » 13 Sep 2014, 22:12

I'm just curious at this point - do you have any personal experience with these tools Bellsey or are you the ever present Autodesk seller guy talking (promoting) in this instance? Because if that's the case, I'd like to caution whoever (because there are a lot of guests here and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that) reads these posts, to take them with a salt filled soup spoon.
Hell, I'd do that even if you'd have personal experience with these.
The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
-Thucydides

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