Houdini Indie Teaser

News concerning 3D DCC business
User avatar
Hirazi Blue
Administrator
Posts: 5107
Joined: 04 Jun 2009, 12:15

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Hirazi Blue » 11 Aug 2014, 21:58

pcd wrote:It's an aggressive move from sidefx to move from a specialized package to a general usage one. So far you have nothing in your offer to counter this.
There is a fine line between an aggressive move and a desperate one and frankly ATM it's "too close to call" IMHO.
pcd wrote:Now this is some NEW attitude to me from a big company.
Well, the whole Houdini Indie story reminds me of the so-called "3Democracy",
where Softimage (the company) slashed prices, making XSI|Foundation affordable to "the masses" all of a sudden.
But this apparently didn't work as well as one would have expected from a business POV.
:-s
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

User avatar
Mathaeus
Posts: 1778
Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 21:11
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Mathaeus » 11 Aug 2014, 22:20

pcd wrote: I am anyway but confused. I am not interested to whom is addressed MayaLT, i am only interested in two things: price and feature set. On both accounts, for my use, MayaLT is not an option.
As Bellsey already said, it's typical configuration for game development. A lot of poly modeling, UV and texture work, baking, applying Mocap, finally some simple animation from time to time. But, 'render' or "simulate" button perhaps never. Such work asks for a lot of human power, lot of seats, price is more than important. Theoretically, programmers in small facility are able to build some in-house tool - but in practice, their time is reserved for anything else but pleasing the artists, so, what game artist has out-of-the-box, that is. In case of Maya LT, for such work, set of tools, all ready to use, is impressive.
Just alone viewport 2 thing with alive displacement, whatever.
Finally, Maya is well known brand, which gives additional motivation, even for 2d artists, to try out this cool technology.
Personally, I don't like Maya that much and I'm not game artist for a long time - but, afaik, what I've described, it's common state, all around.

angus_davidson
Posts: 583
Joined: 20 Dec 2012, 05:13
Skype: ithacapellin

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by angus_davidson » 11 Aug 2014, 22:41

There is a massive difference between what the introduction of Foundation did and what sidefx is doing now.. A lot of it has to do with why maya is the dominant dcc app. Timing. Sidefx in my opinion have timed this very well.

When foundation was released , those few people who were actually aware of it were deeply suspicious. Money was plentiful so there was no valid business reason to drop the price so there must have been something wrong. There was very little communication from the company to resellers and consequently from resellers to clients to counteract that.

Sidefx have a few things going for them, The economy is a very different beast. Times are very tough globally and the time = money equation has never been more important. Secondly Autodesk did such a fustercluck of the EOL announcement that they single handedly got people to evaluate dccs out of the Autodesk suite and people started taking a keen interest in how those companies have responded. SideFx offer is very aggressive but I think its the right response. Houdini is mainly going up against Maya and to do that you cannot be timid.
--
Technomancer at Digital Arts
Wits University

Bullit
Moderator
Posts: 2621
Joined: 24 May 2012, 09:44

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Bullit » 12 Aug 2014, 00:10

Foundation lost because it didn't had a working Global Ilumination like Vray/Finalrender/Brasil, 2 years or so after those arrived in the market.

I think Houdini is in a comparable or even worse position since it doesn't have a conventional modeling and the company doesn't invest in ease of use.

The biggest expense for the client of a 3D application is Time.

And companies fail to understand that.

angus_davidson
Posts: 583
Joined: 20 Dec 2012, 05:13
Skype: ithacapellin

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by angus_davidson » 12 Aug 2014, 00:37

The difference is Houdini is not trying to be the out of the box solution that Softimage was always trying to be , and eventually became before AD killed it.

There are more then enough products available to get meshes into Houdini.

Unless that focus has shifted for version 14 of course
--
Technomancer at Digital Arts
Wits University

pcd
Posts: 35
Joined: 01 Apr 2014, 08:49

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by pcd » 12 Aug 2014, 07:45

Hirazi Blue wrote:
pcd wrote:It's an aggressive move from sidefx to move from a specialized package to a general usage one. So far you have nothing in your offer to counter this.
There is a fine line between an aggressive move and a desperate one and frankly ATM it's "too close to call" IMHO.
pcd wrote:Now this is some NEW attitude to me from a big company.
Well, the whole Houdini Indie story reminds me of the so-called "3Democracy",
where Softimage (the company) slashed prices, making XSI|Foundation affordable to "the masses" all of a sudden.
But this apparently didn't work as well as one would have expected from a business POV.
:-s
Not quite true. I said something like this on they forums(well, just droped the ball to see if i can find out something BEFORE i started to do serious learning) and someone pointed me to they year achievments public data. Looks like 2013 was they all time high in sales, so this is not the reason. The reason is they try to enter game market(and aim at maya) and freelance/small studios is my guess. If it's a good or wrong move, i don't know more then you do. But, i do think the price will go up substantially once they penetrated the market. Will see in couple of years...

pcd
Posts: 35
Joined: 01 Apr 2014, 08:49

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by pcd » 12 Aug 2014, 08:01

Mathaeus wrote: As Bellsey already said, it's typical configuration for game development. A lot of poly modeling, UV and texture work, baking, applying Mocap, finally some simple animation from time to time. But, 'render' or "simulate" button perhaps never. Such work asks for a lot of human power, lot of seats, price is more than important. Theoretically, programmers in small facility are able to build some in-house tool - but in practice, their time is reserved for anything else but pleasing the artists, so, what game artist has out-of-the-box, that is. In case of Maya LT, for such work, set of tools, all ready to use, is impressive.
Just alone viewport 2 thing with alive displacement, whatever.
Finally, Maya is well known brand, which gives additional motivation, even for 2d artists, to try out this cool technology.
Personally, I don't like Maya that much and I'm not game artist for a long time - but, afaik, what I've described, it's common state, all around.

Yea right, it's a VERY striped down version of Maya. And i even laughed hard when i heard the MOCAP thing. Have you really ever worked with MOCAP? I have my own optical system with 4 cameras, so believe me when i say to you that the only two applications that can do serious work with MOCAP(out of the box that is) are XSI and Motion Builder. Why do you think Autodesk is selling Motion Builder alongside Maya and Max? Now Houdini Indie has an exceptional toolset for MOCAP and this is one more point for my studio. The funny thing is that you some how find a much more expensive, lesser value package much more appealing. To me it looks like you don't have anything to do with budgets/purchases and you are a simple employee. I am my own boss and i have budget constraints and a business model, so for me the most important equation is price/feature. And so far Autodesk is well behind anyone else(Houdini, Modo, Cinema 4d). For my business Houdini Indie is the best offer i've seen in the last 10 years. When i will see SOMETHING from Autodesk made to help small businesses i will give them credit. Until then they are the same old greedy company without the vaguest clue about this industry. They are like an elephant in a porcelain shop and they do broke a LOT. They are only geared towards huge facilities. Guess what? Freelancers and small studios have the right to live too, but not in the eyes of autodicks. They killed the only application geared towards freelancers and small studios in their portfolio so don't tell me how good they products are.

Nox
Posts: 108
Joined: 16 Apr 2013, 13:28

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Nox » 12 Aug 2014, 09:41

I don't get it, why it's so hard for SideFX to add proper modeling toolset?

Pooby
Posts: 501
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 22:25

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Pooby » 12 Aug 2014, 10:25

Its not so much that its hard.
Houdini is designed to be a fully procedural tool where anything can be altered after the fact, and modelling by hand doesn't really suit that modus operandi.

I suspect that as Houdini moves forward, it will allow such discrepencies to seep in, for the greater good.

angus_davidson
Posts: 583
Joined: 20 Dec 2012, 05:13
Skype: ithacapellin

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by angus_davidson » 12 Aug 2014, 10:41

Nox wrote:I don't get it, why it's so hard for SideFX to add proper modeling toolset?
Also with a decent alembic / fbx pipeline its not really needed. It also means you can always ensure you get your assets to a similar state before bringing them in. Its a natural QA gateway. It also to some extents separates the artist from the more technical stuff. To be honest I am not sure putting a robust modelling toolkit into Houdini is a smart move.
--
Technomancer at Digital Arts
Wits University

User avatar
Hirazi Blue
Administrator
Posts: 5107
Joined: 04 Jun 2009, 12:15

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Hirazi Blue » 12 Aug 2014, 10:52

pcd wrote:Looks like 2013 was they all time high in sales, so this is not the reason.
I didn't know this, this indeed changes my interpretation of this move a bit. Thanks for the info!
pcd wrote:If it's a good or wrong move, i don't know more then you do. But, i do think the price will go up substantially once they penetrated the market. Will see in couple of years...
One of the problems with a deal like this, especially as it involves rental, not perpetual licenses, is that SideFX can theoretically without prior notice shut the whole "Houdini Indie" program down, like they technically already did with Apprentice HD, leaving you hooked on Houdini (and having built assets with it), without any conceivable means to afford the full version...
x_x

@angus_davidson - Even if there isn't all that much desperation involved, as pcd pointed out, there are still some interesting similarities between "3Democracy" and Houdini Indie, especially in the market the whole program tries to address. The reasons why might be different, but Softimage and SideFX both needed to get in at "that" ground level, if only to make "more of a name for themselves".
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

angus_davidson
Posts: 583
Joined: 20 Dec 2012, 05:13
Skype: ithacapellin

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by angus_davidson » 12 Aug 2014, 11:37

Hirazi Blue wrote:
@angus_davidson - Even if there isn't all that much desperation involved, as pcd pointed out, there are still some interesting similarities between "3Democracy" and Houdini Indie, especially in the market the whole program tries to address. The reasons why might be different, but Softimage and SideFX both needed to get in at "that" ground level, if only to make "more of a name for themselves".
From that point of view I can agree that its a similar watershed type moment. The big difference is in a couple of places. but mostly in the fact that Sidefx is a company that really interacts well with their user base. Something AD has never gotten right. This new product is not a surprise as they have asked what their users want, The pricing was a bit of a surprise with how much you get for the $200

They also have a large group of very unhappy softimage folks that looking for a new berth and a lot of them are in the type of Indie / small company setup that is targeted with this offer.

Its going to be a very interesting week
--
Technomancer at Digital Arts
Wits University

Nox
Posts: 108
Joined: 16 Apr 2013, 13:28

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Nox » 12 Aug 2014, 12:21

Also with a decent alembic / fbx pipeline its not really needed. It also means you can always ensure you get your assets to a similar state before bringing them in. Its a natural QA gateway. It also to some extents separates the artist from the more technical stuff. To be honest I am not sure putting a robust modelling toolkit into Houdini is a smart move.
Such workflow exists in LW since ages and it's probably one of the most hated features.

angus_davidson
Posts: 583
Joined: 20 Dec 2012, 05:13
Skype: ithacapellin

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by angus_davidson » 12 Aug 2014, 12:32

Nox wrote:
Also with a decent alembic / fbx pipeline its not really needed. It also means you can always ensure you get your assets to a similar state before bringing them in. Its a natural QA gateway. It also to some extents separates the artist from the more technical stuff. To be honest I am not sure putting a robust modelling toolkit into Houdini is a smart move.
Such workflow exists in LW since ages and it's probably one of the most hated features.
If LW just dropped the Modeller app and focused on the Scene layout they probably would have done a lot better. Most people never get to the good stuff in the other app because Modeller makes them want to poke their eyes out with a rusty fork.
--
Technomancer at Digital Arts
Wits University

pcd
Posts: 35
Joined: 01 Apr 2014, 08:49

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by pcd » 12 Aug 2014, 13:07

Hirazi Blue wrote: One of the problems with a deal like this, especially as it involves rental, not perpetual licenses, is that SideFX can theoretically without prior notice shut the whole "Houdini Indie" program down, like they technically already did with Apprentice HD, leaving you hooked on Houdini (and having built assets with it), without any conceivable means to afford the full version...
I think there is no way they will do this. The only thing i am pretty sure though is that the current pricing is just for the first year(if not less then this). Then we will move to higher prices, but not extreme. All the assets build with Houdini Indie can be opened with Apprentice witch is free of charge. The ApprenticeHD was not commercial, and 90$/year rental, so all the Apprentice guys have not lost anything. I am like you, i don't like to rent software, but this is where we are heading even if we like it or not. Soon enough there will be no more perpetual licenses.
Thanks,
C

User avatar
Mathaeus
Posts: 1778
Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 21:11
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Houdini Indie Teaser

Post by Mathaeus » 12 Aug 2014, 15:34

pcd wrote:
Mathaeus wrote:
Yea right, it's a VERY striped down version of Maya. And i even laughed hard when i heard the MOCAP thing. Have you really ever worked with MOCAP? I have my own optical system with 4 cameras, so believe me when i say to you that the only two applications that can do serious work with MOCAP(out of the box that is) are XSI and Motion Builder.
Please don't run in this again, please don't turn Houdini thread into into 'pcd against the rest of world' thread. I said "applying". To explain more in detail, it is about already prepared mocap by someone else. Exactly in same way as tons of mocap data were applied to Max biped, and exported to game engines, through decades.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests