Some news from Siggraph

News concerning 3D DCC business
Eugen
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Eugen » 27 Jul 2013, 12:28

keeper wrote: Interesting, how can you able to insert operator into middle of stack without ruin relations between existing operators? I think it is main advantage of Softimage again Maya, no messy of nodes. All is logically structured.

Inserting operators somewhere in the "middle" is possible in three ways:
1 - by disabling the above ops, doing the operation, and re-enabling the stack.
2 - by choosing the right construction mode marker.
3 - by moving operators up or down the stack via d&d.

So far, so good.
It's true that Softimage is quite fail-safe when it comes to re-arranging the stack, the most important restriction being that topology-changing operators must always reside in the Modeling region. Which is allright, either, because it helps Softimage keeping things tidy.

The problem now is, that there is no way to define more precisely where you want to insert the next operator INSIDE the Modeling region. Ops are always simply added just below the selected region marker. This gets in the way of certain nice workflows, like symmetrical modeling.

If a symm op sits on top in the Modeling region, you can only disable it to be able to insert the next operator below it, at the cost of a live evaluation/preview of the whole stack. Shame.
In 3ds Max, this kind of workflow is no problem, and very comfortable.

Workaround: create a clone of that geometry half, and put the symmetry op on that, so you see the complete model. After you are finished, you need to freeze the clone and merge both parts.
To avoid seeing a seam during modeling if you use subdivs, you could clone the original half, duplicate the clone, put symm on it, then create a merge of both halfs. How many parts have you now got?
All this is awkward...

Using a symmetry map is just useful for moving components, because the moment you change the topology, SYM is broken.


Now, an elegant solution would be to introduce another "free" stack marker, to define the position of the next operator, which can be placed ANYWHERE.
Would this be difficult to implement, since stack re-arrangements are possible anyway?
This feature was requested in the beta a while ago. Nothing so far.

You know, it's nice little things like this that would prove that the developers listen, care, and are willing to improve basic day-to-day workflows.
Most of us don't need CrowdFX all the time, do we.

luceric
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by luceric » 27 Jul 2013, 13:05

Eugen wrote:Now, an elegant solution would be to introduce another "free" stack marker, to define the position of the next operator, which can be placed ANYWHERE.
yes
Eugen wrote: Would this be difficult to implement, since stack re-arrangements are possible anyway?
no

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Nizar
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Nizar » 27 Jul 2013, 13:11

it's really interesting note today as a software that has been rewritten to outperform its direct rival is instead been rewritten to be rather lesser powerful, competitive and scalable ... at least I understand so from Luceric words.

Poor dear softimage... you deserved better developers...

luceric
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by luceric » 27 Jul 2013, 13:36

sorry what's getting re-written to be less powerful and scalable now?
Last edited by luceric on 27 Jul 2013, 14:13, edited 1 time in total.

Eugen
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Eugen » 27 Jul 2013, 13:57

luceric wrote:
Eugen wrote:Now, an elegant solution would be to introduce another "free" stack marker, to define the position of the next operator, which can be placed ANYWHERE.
yes
Eugen wrote: Would this be difficult to implement, since stack re-arrangements are possible anyway?
no

Thank you, Luc-Eric!

Now who's gonna do the lobbying? Little grunts like me don't have much to say over there.

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Maximus
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Maximus » 27 Jul 2013, 16:21

Quote:
"
...In the opening speech, Autodesk admitted the industry is facing a lot of challenge and turmoil. The film industry is growing 5% year-over-year, but the same time none of Autodesk's customers are turning much of a profit. This is because the complexity of special effects continues to increase, so the cost of visual effects is outpacing growth in revenues. He gave the example of a controversial Canadian company that went out of business after doing the effects for the movie 'Journey to The Center of Earth', despite receiving tax subsidies.

"So, what can we do to help our customers?," Autodesk asks. The answers were "standardize" and "open": - standardize production cycle (customers keep reinventing ways of doing production) - standardize ways to exchange data, such as creating OpenData to access the dataset of their Maya software - scalability - support of open workflows

"

http://cadinsider.typepad.com/my_weblog ... ustry.html


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Mathaeus
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Mathaeus » 27 Jul 2013, 20:01

Nizar wrote:it's really interesting note today as a software that has been rewritten to outperform its direct rival is instead been rewritten to be rather lesser powerful, competitive and scalable ...
Actually, nothing new that XSI SDK and related stuff, is not what Maya people wanted.
People will probably remember a long discussion on CG Talk, invoked by problems in rendering displacement in XSI 5. It scaled to some kind of fight, I think it was LucEric and Halfdan on XSI side. Author od Affogato rendering translator from another side, ctrl Studio somewhere in between.
But in this time XSi buzzword was 'integration', integration of Mental Ray, integration of Shave, whatever else. Today, buzzword seems to be exactly opposite 'agnostic'. Next buzzword will be.. well we should wait few years for for words of our former captain.

Regrading this agnostic word, I couldn't resist:

'lasciate ogni speranza o voi ch'entrate' ... into graveyard of 3d apps. :)

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Bullit » 27 Jul 2013, 20:06

Marcus Nordenstam seems to think others are idiots when he compares Maya as an interface to Bifrost with Naiad Studio.


Most releases of new M&E software will not occur until Q3
What does this mean?

luceric
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by luceric » 27 Jul 2013, 20:22

Mathaeus wrote: Today, buzzword seems to be exactly opposite 'agnostic'. Next buzzword will be.. well we should wait few years for for words of our former captain.
can't argue with that! the buzzwords are agnositc and clouds, everywhere. But adsk also knows artists are demanding live interactive workflows, not exporting caches between apps. that will need to be balanced. btw the bullet library is product agnostic and that doesn't prevent integration.

luceric
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by luceric » 27 Jul 2013, 20:28

Bullit wrote:Marcus Nordenstam seems to think others are idiots when he compares Maya as an interface to Bifrost with Naiad Studio.
why? maya as an IDE is vastly superior to naiaid studio, for example the real time gpu visualization of volumes will be awsome, so is all the scripting and customization, and the software can live link with the scene and manipulators. Naiad was 5500$ btw, much more expensive than Maya.

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Bullit » 27 Jul 2013, 21:44

Nothing prevents an eventual Bifrost Studio to be much more optimized and light for its job - with various GUI interaction models to cater to different softwares - than an heavy Maya that will always bring legacy issues. It is like saying that now Mudbox should be part of Softimage or 3dsMax. Doesn't make sense. You have a point on price, but that was because Naiad had a crazy cost due to almost no competition for fluids at that level.

luceric
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by luceric » 28 Jul 2013, 02:39

Bullit wrote:Nothing prevents an eventual Bifrost Studio to be much more optimized and light for its job - with various GUI interaction models to cater to different softwares - than an heavy Maya that will always bring legacy issues. It is like saying that now Mudbox should be part of Softimage or 3dsMax. Doesn't make sense.
Sure it makes sense why you have to rebuild a UI framework when there is already one made. Why couldn't mudbox be part of max? Max has several paint and sculpting plug-in already. Joe Alter's LBrush is a zbrush for Maya! It's just softimage that doesn't have the sdk power for this.

Lack of time is what prevents writing yet another GUI. If you had infinite time and wrote a stand alone application, you'd have to write property pages, node editor, furve editing, data management, viewport, gpu management code (and do all the platform ports and support for nVidia/ATI), manipulators, undo stacks, etc.. re-dupplicate all the nice stuff that's already been made. It would never really be done and it's not necessarily going run any faster because there is expertise like buffer management and caching built in Viewport 2.0 you'd have to re-invent. They might be simpler when do you re-invent them, but would it really run faster when your maya node can talk directly to the gpu anyway?

In maya you just define a shape as a place holder and then can draw anything you want, with full access to all the viewport 2.0 buffer managers, accurate lighting model, etc. It doesn't have to be a type of data that maya understands and manages.

Finally, Maya takes only 8 seconds to launch. It's no more an issue to launch Maya to do fluids than it is to launch Houdini to do fluids. This is just a problem that would come up with someone who has some kind of bug up his butt about not wanting to specifically run Maya. Bifrost studio would be another app with its own quirks as well, we've all used these weird apps (ex: Vue) where we can't figure out how to nagivate the camera or transform objects. Naiad studio was open source and was not developed by the people who made naiad, they wanted nothing to do with writing UI.

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Mathaeus
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Mathaeus » 28 Jul 2013, 14:28

luceric wrote:Joe Alter's LBrush is a zbrush for Maya! It's just softimage that doesn't have the sdk power for this.
Sorry, but you must be joking with this 'zbrush'. Nothing on this planet have raw power of zBrush, especially not this LBrush thing. Exactly zBrush could be an example, how theory and practice differs (they are still even on 32bit, aren't they) - once developers have a courage to go with their own concept and criteria, and they are ready to stand behind.

Since sad day in 2008, I naively hoped, AD will be able to develop the 'profiling' of 3d software. Softimage could be 'high end for small people', probably not pleasant for developers, but definitively more 'possible' software for one man bands or small shops. Having it's own small world, of what's good or bad.
But no, good or bad of Maya is a norm - where you elegantly avoid to say anything from bad side. Corporation, instead of letting the thousand flowers to bloom, behaves like single entity.
Any small team, anywhere on planet, have chance to be competitor against that single entity. Even more than competitor, because AD don't even have own renderer. BTW, just that Mental Ray thing, for me, it's enough strong repellent, to do not even think about Maya. What, in 2016 or so, I'll waiting for hacks, just in order to enable this or that feature of newest MR 4.128945. No go.

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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by Bullit » 29 Jul 2013, 01:23

Sure it makes sense why you have to rebuild a UI framework when there is already one made. Why couldn't mudbox be part of max? Max has several paint and sculpting plug-in already. Joe Alter's LBrush is a zbrush for Maya! It's just softimage that doesn't have the sdk power for this.

Lack of time is what prevents writing yet another GUI. If you had infinite time and wrote a stand alone application, you'd have to write property pages, node editor, furve editing, data management, viewport, gpu management code (and do all the platform ports and support for nVidia/ATI), manipulators, undo stacks, etc.. re-dupplicate all the nice stuff that's already been made. It would never really be done and it's not necessarily going run any faster because there is expertise like buffer management and caching built in Viewport 2.0 you'd have to re-invent. They might be simpler when do you re-invent them, but would it really run faster when your maya node can talk directly to the gpu anyway?

In maya you just define a shape as a place holder and then can draw anything you want, with full access to all the viewport 2.0 buffer managers, accurate lighting model, etc. It doesn't have to be a type of data that maya understands and manages.

Finally, Maya takes only 8 seconds to launch. It's no more an issue to launch Maya to do fluids than it is to launch Houdini to do fluids. This is just a problem that would come up with someone who has some kind of bug up his butt about not wanting to specifically run Maya. Bifrost studio would be another app with its own quirks as well, we've all used these weird apps (ex: Vue) where we can't figure out how to nagivate the camera or transform objects. Naiad studio was open source and was not developed by the people who made naiad, they wanted nothing to do with writing UI.
What a bunch of red herrings as an ice cake already an eventual Autodesk Bifrost Studio being an weird app before being born.
I thought that an eventual Autodesk Bifrost Studio would get a Viewport Cube ...... :))
Or are you saying that suddenly all Autodesk GUI interface development broke loose, everyone going to their directions?
Plus you saying at same time is that there is no reason for Maya to be the Bifrost interface, other Autodesk DCCs apps can get it. What prevents Softimage about getting Bifrost?

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gustavoeb
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Re: Some news from Siggraph

Post by gustavoeb » 29 Jul 2013, 02:39

I am curious how that is going to work price wise... hopefully one will have to pay for a separate Bifrost license, and be able to hook it everywhere they please.
most plug-ins that get incorporated in ADs products just stagnate, maybe being treated as a separate agnostic entity it can have a different destiny, lets hope...
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