Animation Options

Discussions about migration to other software
pluMmet
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Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 20 May 2014, 13:41

Besides another AD owned program what are the replacements that people here are considering.

I really wanted to go Houdini but it's 'workflow' is anything but flow and just work.

Houdini Keyframe Animating

Just painful to watch. There was some argument about how being able to animate a biped was possible in Houdini so lets not start that again. Yes it can be done. I can also scratch out my eyes :P

I know that the Houdini guys are talking about improving that 'somehow' but considering how little effort has gone into flow so far I wonder if they will 'get' it at all?

So where are you looking to ease your suffering of the loss of animating in si ?

Is it a single program or a new (I hate this chopped up process) 'pipeline'?

pluMmet
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Re: Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 20 May 2014, 16:13

I'm on the lookout today for migration possibilities.

Maybe you all already saw this as it's almost a month old (been busy.)



I had ignored Modo simply due to no Arnold support (Announced.)

I had only looked @ Houdini because of the Arnold announcement as I had previously rejected it. Particles are great but Animation is core.

Has anyone had a chance to look deeper into Modo animation? I'll keep looking thru the info but if anyone has any insight I would be grateful.

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Mathaeus
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Re: Animation Options

Post by Mathaeus » 20 May 2014, 20:15

pluMmet wrote:I'm on the lookout today for migration possibilities.
I had only looked @ Houdini because of the Arnold announcement as I had previously rejected it. Particles are great but Animation is core.

Has anyone had a chance to look deeper into Modo animation? I'll keep looking thru the info but if anyone has any insight I would be grateful.
Here is thread about OpenSubdiv on Modo forum. Otherwise, yeah I've put some time around Modo 601 and 801 - but really don't want talk the same story again, about Modo and about Houdini... In short, if animation is important, for now, there is no migration possibility outside AD. Simply as that.
The renderer "turtle" used by this scene, is not currently available. The "turtle" renderer will be used instead.

pluMmet
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Re: Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 21 May 2014, 16:39

Mathaeus wrote: In short, if animation is important, for now, there is no migration possibility outside AD. Simply as that.
The plain truth is not always easy to hear when it does not give you what you wanted but it's the only thing worth anything.

Thank you :-bd

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Draise
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Re: Animation Options

Post by Draise » 22 May 2014, 05:14

Well surprisingly I found Blender's animation toolset not bad: has keyframes, Fcurves and clip based "action clips" animation track editor. There are no animation layers, but with the animation track editor, offsets shouldn't be too bad. There are shape keysets, also keyframe sets if you also need it - a constraint system, full body IK and FK solutions, expression abilities, and other tools.

Later on, as mentioned earlier in the forums, gpu accelerated rigs will help with the frame rate, as it's being developed.

So other than animation layers that SI or Maya have, I would consider atleast having a look at the Blender animation toolset - even if it's "clunky" by popular opinion.

Comparing it to Modo that doesn't even have an animation track system yet, it is a tad up ahead than the others.

I do hear though that Messiah Studio is a great package for animation, right now it's at a decent discount price. I would also take a look at that, it's rigging is fantastic - concerning it's animation toolset, I have no idea how it is - but I heard good things and seen some fun work done with it.

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Re: Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 22 May 2014, 14:17

Messiah:Studio is everything I want in an animation package afa tools for an animator.

The problem is the deformation part of it is sooooo lacking.

Creating sophisticated deformations is not possible in m:s and the way this stuff works connecting m:s to even Houdini which is great at it is not really do able in a complete and simple way.

Remember this great piece of work:



Try that in m:s

If anyone can tell me a way to easily create a model then rig it in Houdini to be animated in m:s thru a translation tool of ease I would be eternaly greatfull.

I need to be able to get the rigged model from Houdini into m:s with little more then 10 to 15 minutes of effort.

I don't care about the rigging time in Houdini that is tottaly great and acceptable but re rigging it in m:s to match to x degree so the animators can do a precise enough job is bordline impossible. It would take longer than any other part of the animation process from modeling to camera work just to match them up.

Maybe it's a fault of mine that I can't?

Can anyone better then me do it? How?

There need to be a way to transfer deformations from rig to rig and package to package but I don't know of any.

pluMmet
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Re: Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 22 May 2014, 15:55

Messiah:Studio can export bones and weights but not import them... if it could there is no doubt that I would go with Houdini and m:s for my replacement.

What a shame.. so close but so far away.

Makes you wonder if the Messiah folks even want to succeed? They know how to do it but won't.

Everyone is so into "their" way that nothing connects correctly.

Messiah: "We will put our bones and weight maps into other peoples packages but No One is putting their Bones and weights into ours."

Messiah complex is more like it.

Houdini: "We will make improvements as long as it does not go against the HOUDINI WAY."

It's appropriate that their splash image looks like barbed wire because no one with a soul can touch it. You need to insulate your creativity to the point of being a robot to use it.

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SamHowell
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Re: Animation Options

Post by SamHowell » 22 May 2014, 23:57

pluMmet wrote:I really wanted to go Houdini but it's 'workflow' is anything but flow and just work.

Houdini Keyframe Animating

Just painful to watch. There was some argument about how being able to animate a biped was possible in Houdini so lets not start that again. Yes it can be done. I can also scratch out my eyes :P
Thanks for the link, I had missed that one. I Just completed it and found it very usefull. I even managed to animate something.

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Re: Animation Options

Post by angus_davidson » 23 May 2014, 08:21

pluMmet wrote:I'm on the lookout today for migration possibilities.

Maybe you all already saw this as it's almost a month old (been busy.)

video snippped

I had ignored Modo simply due to no Arnold support (Announced.)

I had only looked @ Houdini because of the Arnold announcement as I had previously rejected it. Particles are great but Animation is core.

Has anyone had a chance to look deeper into Modo animation? I'll keep looking thru the info but if anyone has any insight I would be grateful.
Modo has really strong animation tools. Personally I find them the most intuitive and easiest to use. More so the even Softimages.

Start with the two 701 videos



and then have a look at the new 801 videos on the luxology website.

it is incredibly flexible, customisable and visual
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pluMmet
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Re: Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 23 May 2014, 10:42

@ Sam - I'm glad you found it helpful. There is no doubt that Houdini can do key frame animations :)

@ angus - I suspect I should look more into Modo's animation abilities. Thanks for the link and the heads up :-B

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Re: Animation Options

Post by angus_davidson » 23 May 2014, 10:45

pluMmet wrote:@ Sam - I'm glad you found it helpful. There is no doubt that Houdini can do key frame animations :)

@ angus - I suspect I should look more into Modo's animation abilities. Thanks for the link and the heads up :-B
Mostly people get stuck at the rigging which is done in a very different way (order of operations). But to actually animate in Modo is a joy.
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SamHowell
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Re: Animation Options

Post by SamHowell » 23 May 2014, 11:08

So is it creature and character animation that's difficult with Houdini? I have not given this a try yet.

pluMmet
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Re: Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 23 May 2014, 11:52

SamHowell wrote:So is it creature and character animation that's difficult with Houdini? I have not given this a try yet.
That appears to be the case.

I keep looking to prove it wrong as Houdini has so much to offer in most other areas.

Obviously we are talking about hand animation here. Houdini procedural stuff looks great too.

If you find any information at all that shows a solid workflow for direct character animation in Houdini I'd love to see it but so far all I've seen is people pointing out every other thing that Houdini can do.

I'm fully willing to admit that not having all the amenities we are used to like what we call an "animation mixer" might not mean a package is not up to the task. Modo for instance is going about things in a way that I am not familiar with so I need to look more into it to see if it can get the job done. Modo looks fun to use honestly but I wonder if it has versatility too?

Houdini on the other hand does not have the tools we are use to and I see no alternate method. Imagine animating a biped in si without the animation mixer and you have a good idea of what you have in Houdini. You can get the job done no doubt... but your not happy about it O:-)

It actually looks a bit harder to do then just without the "Animation Mixer" but I can't get a straight answer out of the houdini enthusiasts as they are stuck on the fact that it can be done and that is where the conversation ends.

CHOPS, CHOPS, CHOPS they keep clucking but none can produce an example that show the ease you have with si or any of the other "animation mixer" capable things we are familiar with ie. Maya Lightwave Max m:s and a few others.

There is a reason the internet is filled with videos showing of Houdini rig examples... it does a great job of them.

There is also a reason the internet is void of people showing themselves animating characters in Houdini..

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SamHowell
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Re: Animation Options

Post by SamHowell » 23 May 2014, 12:10

pluMmet wrote:It actually looks a bit harder to do then just without the "Animation Mixer" but I can't get a straight answer out for the houdini enthusiasts as they are stuck on the fact that it can be done and that is where the conversation ends.

CHOPS, CHOPS, CHOPS they keep clucking but none can produce an example that show the ease you have with si or any of the other "animation mixer" capable things we are familiar with ie. Maya Lightwave Max m:s and a few others.

There is a reason the internet is filled with videos showing of Houdini rig examples... it does a great job of them.

There is also a reason the internet is void of people showing themselves animating characters in Houdini..
Hmm, maybe Houdini tends to attract TD's but not animators and so there is a lack of tutorials and examples. I'm eager to have a look myself now, although i'm not that much of a character animator myself.

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Re: Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 23 May 2014, 12:11

angus_davidson wrote:Mostly people get stuck at the rigging which is done in a very different way (order of operations). But to actually animate in Modo is a joy.
I actually smiled watching it :D

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Re: Animation Options

Post by pluMmet » 23 May 2014, 12:15

SamHowell wrote:Hmm, maybe Houdini tends to attract TD's but not animators and so there is a lack of tutorials and examples. I'm eager to have a look myself now, although i'm not that much of a character animator myself.
We are all in love with images here :)

Character animation is what makes or breaks it though. We are Human and that is how we see the world and we use our examples to teach others.

As such charcter animation is the one area where we spend the most time if we want to reach others.

The people doing that animation put their souls into these characters and need every advantage to get that work done (period) lol

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