why not cinema 4d?

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MauricioPC
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by MauricioPC » 07 Apr 2014, 23:07

Wont be able to see your presentation today noseman (have French class), but on Wednesday it'll work.


Found out on C4DCafe about this Retopo workflow for Cinema 4D. Very cool.


reberhart
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by reberhart » 08 Apr 2014, 00:02

Not sure how useful retopo is in an application that still can't bake between arbitrary meshes. For instance, you can't take a high poly with no UV's and bake to a low poly with UV's. Maxon has never quite understood game artist workflows.

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MauricioPC
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by MauricioPC » 09 Apr 2014, 22:15

Bobo Petrov presentation of Krakatoa for C4D was really good. Today at 5:30 PST there's the last one.

The first one you can watch here ...

http://www.livestream.com/cineversity/folder

Open the "Live Show [livestream] Mon Apr 7 2014 05:30:50 PM..." file and go to the last 35 minutes of the show ... that's when Bobo talk starts.

Bobo also said:
So we plan to have two live webinars around April 23rd /24th, one timed for Europe/the UK.
Stay tuned!

antsjoe
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by antsjoe » 10 Apr 2014, 22:22

MauricioPC wrote: I know about TurbulenceFD, which is a great plugin, but what other tools aside TFD and X-Particles is a must for FX work on C4D? I'm talking explosions, fire, smoke, demolition and dynamics. Is there any other plugin that it's a must and what exactly C4D lacks in this subject?

Thanks again.

Cheers.
I have not read the entire thread but thought I would offer 2 suggestions.

A vfx module EFFEX 2.0 is available from http://www.dpit2.de/navie/index.php . He does have demo and I have seen on a recent visit to the home page a PLE version in addition to the Demo. Youtube videos are posted at https://www.youtube.com/user/DPITNatureSpirit/featured .

Another user of EFFEX has a site http://www.amgproductions.co.uk/ with video on uses of EFFEX. The site does not have all his videos updated for v2.0 and you may want to look at the section on 1.7 release.

The other suggestion is a learning opportunity that suggest 250 free videos on the site. There are some plug ins listed and I have used at times. The site for it is - http://greyscalegorilla.com/blog

Hope that these my of interest to you and others looking at C4D.

aj

Eugen
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Eugen » 15 Apr 2014, 12:28

Hello,
got back to testing Cinema4D, with 3D-Django's help, and... there's a lot to be liked!
A nice and clean, well-configurable, no BS interface, for a start.

Some questions:

#1 How can I undo parameter changes made in preferences? Don't tell me that's not possible.
Is the undo buffer restricted to scene changes, and nothing else?


#2 How do I script log all the scene edits (like moving components)?
The 'Script Log' seems only to recognize certain commands, and displays them with some ID, not by name.


#3 one for the SDK-savvy:
As Noseman demonstrates in his MoExtrude video, parametric topology changing 'deformers' are possible indeed. That's cool - I hope there's much more to come! (Bevel, Shell...)
So, C4D might not have an operator stack - but maybe it actually does, via MoGraph deformers?
The question:
any good introductory sites/docs/tutorials around to get into C4D scripting? Couldn't find much 'at a glace' information on Maxon's developer support page.
I'd be most interested to get an understanding of C4D's generator/deformer architecture, because this is key to what is working/can be expected regarding non-linear workflows (desirable or not).


#4 regarding MoExtrude:
how do I restrict the effect to only the selected polygons?


#5 did anyone hear of a (planned) Fabric Engine 'Splice' integration for Cinema?
That would be an indicator whether C4D is considered as a 'studio backbone' already by some.


Cheers,
Eugen

Holger Biebrach
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Holger Biebrach » 15 Apr 2014, 13:08

Hi Eugen,
I try to answer some of your questions.
Eugen wrote: #1 How can I undo parameter changes made in preferences? Don't tell me that's not possible.
Is the undo buffer restricted to scene changes, and nothing else?
That is not possible. I am not sure why you would need that? I never missed undo in Preferences as you should really know what you do when changing anything here. Anyways...if that is really important to you you could conrtol the Projectsettings and Displaysettings as well as Rendersetting with Userdata and Xpresso. This way you would have Undo for these settings.
Eugen wrote: #2 How do I script log all the scene edits (like moving components)?
The 'Script Log' seems only to recognize certain commands, and displays them with some ID, not by name.
The Log is limited to commands with a Callcommand-ID and changes in the Attributesmanager. Componentchanges are not logged.
Eugen wrote: #3 one for the SDK-savvy:
As Noseman demonstrates in his MoExtrude video, parametric topology changing 'deformers' are possible indeed. That's cool - I hope there's much more to come! (Bevel, Shell...)
So, C4D might not have an operator stack - but maybe it actually does, via MoGraph deformers?
The question:
any good introductory sites/docs/tutorials around to get into C4D scripting? Couldn't find much 'at a glace' information on Maxon's developer support page.
I'd be most interested to get an understanding of C4D's generator/deformer architecture, because this is key to what is working/can be expected regarding non-linear workflows (desirable or not).
Here is some coding resources:
http://blog.grooff.eu/?page_id=291
http://www.smart-page.net/blog/
http://www.plugincafe.com/

If you look into your Pluginsfolder there is a Folder called "cinema4dsdk" There are many Pluginsexamples in there. Also Deformer and Generator Plugins. You find the description of these in the c++ SDK.
Eugen wrote: #4 regarding MoExtrude:
how do I restrict the effect to only the selected polygons?
You need to make a Polygonselection and drag the Selection tag into the Slot of the Extrudedeformer
Eugen wrote: #5 did anyone hear of a (planned) Fabric Engine 'Splice' integration for Cinema?
That would be an indicator whether C4D is considered as a 'studio backbone' already by some.
I did not hear anything about this yet.


I hope this helped a bit. Grretings, Holger

Holger Biebrach
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Holger Biebrach » 15 Apr 2014, 13:18

MauricioPC wrote:Wont be able to see your presentation today noseman (have French class), but on Wednesday it'll work.


Found out on C4DCafe about this Retopo workflow for Cinema 4D. Very cool.

I have made RetopoScripts for c4D which make retopology in c4D even easier as the script remeshes the Projection of the Shrinkwrapdeformer. Here is an Exmaple Video I made a while ago show Sculpting and Retopology Workflow in c4d. Speed is at 2,5x I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOqfYMUEQso

You can download the Scripts on my c4d-Blog: http://www.holgerbiebrach.com/?page_id=28

3D-Django
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by 3D-Django » 15 Apr 2014, 15:19

Hello,
Eugen wrote: #1 How can I undo parameter changes made in preferences? Don't tell me that's not possible.
Is the undo buffer restricted to scene changes, and nothing else?
The undo-stack itself only works for scene changes AFAIK.
There's no dedicated undo, but you can reset the parameters. Right-click on the parameter and choose "Reset to Default" or "Reset All" to reset all parameters in that section. This works in every manager throughout Cinema 4D.


Eugen wrote: The question:
any good introductory sites/docs/tutorials around to get into C4D scripting?
Additional to Holger's links, here's an introduction to python scripting:
http://lesterbanks.com/2011/10/an-intro ... cinema-4d/

But I'm sure there are many other resources I'm not aware of since I'm not a scripting guy at all.

Eugen wrote: I'd be most interested to get an understanding of C4D's generator/deformer architecture, because this is key to what is working/can be expected regarding non-linear workflows (desirable or not).
I'll try to give a short overview over C4D's workflow principles:
The "heart" of every scene is the object manager. It offers an overview over all scene objects and their properties. It is used to define hierarchies as well as dependencies between objects.
There are different types of objects in C4D:

1. Generator objects:
These have a green icon, and are called generators because they either generate some new objects or new geometry. They always require some inputs, and these inputs are defined by just making other objects children of the generator.
For example, a mograph cloner. If you want a cube to be cloned, create a cube and make it a child of the mograph generator. The cube then gets cloned as defined in the mograph cloner (a "clone" can be seen as something like a "particle", although there are other dedicated particle simulation tools too).
Another example, a sweep operaton: to create a tube-like shape, create a sweep generator. This requires two splines then as children, the first one defines the profile and the second one the path
Another example, a subdivision surface: it requires a polygon object as child, which then is used to generate the subdivision surface.
Sometimes you want more than one input (for example subdivide not only one polygon object): In this case, group all your polygon objects under a null object and make the null child of the generator.
Generator objects can have lots of parameters; they are all accessible via the Attribute Manager (=property page).
Almost every parameter is animatable and available for XPresso.
This paradigm works througout every part of Cinema 4D. Everything in these relationships stays non-destructive and can be exchanged at any time.

2. Deformers/Effectors
Are usually there to deform geometry or matrices (the "moextrude" is an exception here as Srek already pointed out as it generates new geometry). They have purple icons. Deformers always have to be children of the objects they should deform, or on the same hierarchy level. This means, p.ex. if you have a bunch of objects and all want them to be deformed by one deformer, just throw them all into a null object. The objects plus the deformer are now on the same hierarchy level and all objects get deformed. This paradigm is also true for Cinema's character rigging tools: you can create your rig hierarchies wherever you want, but the actual deformation is done by a skin deformer (=envelope).
Effectors are designed to work with mograph generators mainly. They are used to "deform" the matrices of the clones, p.ex. give them random positions, make clones follow a spline, etc. The possibilities are endless. The workflow is a bit different here. You can't just make effectors children of your mograph generator, as the mograph generator already assumes that its children are the clones to be generated.
Instead, every mograph generator uses an effector tab which you can see in the attribute manager, and drag/drop the desired effectors there.
Effectors in point/poly/edge deformation modes work just like deformers.

3. Tags
Tags are applied to objects to give them certain properties. P.ex. to define the phong angle, add a phong tag to the desired objects (most have one by default). You can then change the parameters in the Attribute manager (=property page) again. Tags are usually inherited throughout hierarchies, so p.ex. if the parent has a phong tag, all its children also inherit the attributes defined there, except they have their own phong tag.
Tags are used to define constraints, IK, dynamics properties, render properties, XPresso setups, etc. etc…
Again, almost every parameter is animatable and available for XPresso.

4. Order of execution
The more complex the setup is, the more important becomes the order of execution of all these generators, deformers and tags. Objects are evaluated from top to bottom, tags from left to right. What does that mean? I try to give an example: a cube should be deformed by a bend and a twist deformer. So, first of all, both deformers have either to be children of the cube, or the cube and the two deformers are grouped under a null object (= they are on the same hierarchical level). Now, if the bend deformer is evaluated first and the twist deformer second, the result is very different as if twist comes first and bend second.
With tags, it's similar: imagine an object with two aim constraint tags. The first constraint tag (on the left) defines that the object's Z axis should point to another object (A). The second aim constraint tag, which is right from the first tag, defines that the Z axis should point to object B. Since the right tag is evaluated AFTER the left tag, and they are both influencing the same parameter, the right tag "overwrites" the left tag, so the object will always point to object B.
To overwrite these orders of execution, tags can be given priorities which then

These are the principles of how basically everything works in Cinema 4D.
I hope that clears some things up.


Regarding the scripting questions, I'm afraid I'm no big help here ;)

cheers
Günter

Eugen
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Eugen » 15 Apr 2014, 15:42

Thanks, Holger!

#1
Well, in Softimage, preferences are parameters, too, like all others, so they get logged and can be undo-ed.
Obviously C4D makes a difference here, which I recognize as a kind of inconsistency. I don't know C4D well enough yet to be able to tell whether this is a disadvantage, too.
(Not that this is of particular importance, but recently I messed with the UI font, and forgot which was the original one, so I tried undo...)

Edit: as Günter just said, it can be reset to default at least.

In Softimage, if you are looking for script commands for UI changes of all kinds, you just need to watch the log.
You can also just d&d the command into the script editor to run it, and there you go. Quite elegant.

#2 hmm, as I just said.

#3 thanks, I will have a look!

#4 understood! It's worth mentioning that the d&d of the selection tag has to go into the attribute editor, 'polygon selection' parameter.

Cheers,
Eugen

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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Eugen » 15 Apr 2014, 15:56

Thanks for the verbose answer, Günter, that indeed clears up some things!

The joker is this remark:
"the "moextrude" is an exception here as Srek already pointed out as it generates new geometry"

That's what I addressed with my SDK question. It's obviously possible to develop parametric topology changing tools.
So, C4D seems to have the foundations needed for a full parametric workflow, with the analogy to an operator stack being this 'nested generators' approach.

I'm insisting on that, because I need parametric modelling - not always, but often. I like to have the choice!
Modo lacks it almost completely, Houdini does it all, but thus is makes a science out of many things.
Softimage, and also 3ds max, are the golden compromise. Maybe Cinema is, too.

But, as I said, I hope there will be much more MoWhatever generators to come, because there's a lot missing still. Let's see.

Best,
Eugen

Cutman
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Cutman » 15 Apr 2014, 17:01

Eugen wrote:Thanks for the verbose answer, Günter, that indeed clears up some things!

The joker is this remark:
"the "moextrude" is an exception here as Srek already pointed out as it generates new geometry"

That's what I addressed with my SDK question. It's obviously possible to develop parametric topology changing tools.
So, C4D seems to have the foundations needed for a full parametric workflow, with the analogy to an operator stack being this 'nested generators' approach.

I'm insisting on that, because I need parametric modelling - not always, but often. I like to have the choice!
Modo lacks it almost completely, Houdini does it all, but thus is makes a science out of many things.
Softimage, and also 3ds max, are the golden compromise. Maybe Cinema is, too.

But, as I said, I hope there will be much more MoWhatever generators to come, because there's a lot missing still. Let's see.

Best,
Eugen
C4D does have it's compromises and is a mix of polygon based modelling and parametric modelling but you can only go so far with parametric objects. It would be great if there was actually no distinction between parametric objects and polygon objects.

For instance I wanted to target the intersection of a Boole object as a polygon selection but the only way to do this is to convert the Boole object to a polygon object thus killing the parametric workflow and killing your ability to animate the Boole. There are certain times it gets annoying that there is a distinction.

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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Eugen » 15 Apr 2014, 17:38

Maybe it's possible to convert polygon tools to MoXYZ tools over time.

There was something similar going on in 3ds max years ago, when tools embedded into EditPoly were one by one 'broken out' into separate modifiers.

Holger Biebrach
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Holger Biebrach » 15 Apr 2014, 19:51

Eugen wrote:Thanks, Holger!
#1
Well, in Softimage, preferences are parameters, too, like all others, so they get logged and can be undo-ed.
Obviously C4D makes a difference here, which I recognize as a kind of inconsistency. I don't know C4D well enough yet to be able to tell whether this is a disadvantage, too.
(Not that this is of particular importance, but recently I messed with the UI font, and forgot which was the original one, so I tried undo...)

Edit: as Günter just said, it can be reset to default at least.
You can also delete the Preferences Folder in the Finder to reset C4D completely. That is like Factoryreset and C4D will create a new clean Pref-Folder when you launch it the next time. You can also delete single pref-files inside the Preffolder to reset certain aspects like shortcuts, Menues or Colors. Also good to know that you can carry your pref-Folder anywhere on a USB-Stick. So when you work at a different location you just rename the current Preffolder (as you may get trouble from the guy who sits on that machine normally when you don't backup his Prefs). Than copy your prefs from your USB stick to the Machiene and you feel like home with all you layouts and shortcuts.

Holger Biebrach
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Holger Biebrach » 15 Apr 2014, 20:02

Cutman wrote: For instance I wanted to target the intersection of a Boole object as a polygon selection but the only way to do this is to convert the Boole object to a polygon object thus killing the parametric workflow and killing your ability to animate the Boole. There are certain times it gets annoying that there is a distinction.
In this situations you can use the Correction deformer. The Correctiondeformer acts as a Polygonal instance of any parametrical setup. And on the Correction deformer you can also set Polygonselections and use them on the Parametric object for example. But if you animate the Boole it will break the Polygonselection as you have a topological change. So yes, there are limitations in the parametric-Workflow...but there is also platy of thirdparty-tools covering most of the shortcoming of c4d.

Nitroman is a Pluginmakermachiene....he got a lot of Tools for procedural Modelling. You should check out his stuff and watch his Videos...he speaks his own version of English....really great: http://nitro4d.com/blog/

For Modelling you should check his Plugins: Magicmesh, MagicFalloff, Magigmodel, Magicmerge, Magicsymmetry and Magicsweep...these are all great Modelling helper. I have all of his Plugins and use half of them Frequently.

Cutman
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Cutman » 16 Apr 2014, 14:19

Holger Biebrach wrote:
Cutman wrote: For instance I wanted to target the intersection of a Boole object as a polygon selection but the only way to do this is to convert the Boole object to a polygon object thus killing the parametric workflow and killing your ability to animate the Boole. There are certain times it gets annoying that there is a distinction.
In this situations you can use the Correction deformer. The Correctiondeformer acts as a Polygonal instance of any parametrical setup. And on the Correction deformer you can also set Polygonselections and use them on the Parametric object for example. But if you animate the Boole it will break the Polygonselection as you have a topological change. So yes, there are limitations in the parametric-Workflow...but there is also platy of thirdparty-tools covering most of the shortcoming of c4d.

Nitroman is a Pluginmakermachiene....he got a lot of Tools for procedural Modelling. You should check out his stuff and watch his Videos...he speaks his own version of English....really great: http://nitro4d.com/blog/

For Modelling you should check his Plugins: Magicmesh, MagicFalloff, Magigmodel, Magicmerge, Magicsymmetry and Magicsweep...these are all great Modelling helper. I have all of his Plugins and use half of them Frequently.
Thanks Holger.

I know about the correction deformer but in this instance would not work for what I wanted.

Yep, I'm a big fan of Nitroman I too use many of his plugins.

It would be great if one day C4D had the power of ICE and we could easily build libraries of plugins and compounds ourselves but I'm not holding my breath.

Eugen
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Eugen » 16 Apr 2014, 15:43

Quo vadis, Cinema4D...
I don't mean specific roadmap details, but the whole concept - is it meant to be a 'casual' 3D program for the masses, or do they want it to become more 'high-endish', a studio backbone and platform? All of this?
There are many good approaches, but as a whole, C4D seems to be somewhat... 'not there yet'.
What's there is fine, but what's the overall 'bracket'? What's Maxon's ambition?
After all, they are around now longer than Softimage, even Maya I think.

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