why not cinema 4d?

Discussions about migration to other software
luchifer
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why not cinema 4d?

Post by luchifer » 07 Mar 2014, 20:40

hi, I jumped the train a year ago from XSI to C4d, and I wanted to ask this question since I didnt see C4D in the poll on the "what if" topic... and, since it is dead, I want to know:

Why C4D isnt a viable alternative for freelancers? I have been using it and Xpresso + MoGraph combo just destroys every other software I know. Grante, I work in a television channel and for me deadline > quality.
I just want to know why is not even considered as a viable alternative.

- Is not in the poll
- Blender has more mentions than C4D in this page
- I have read comments like "C4D is not in the same league as XSI"

Well, we XSI users, dont have a league now, so, why C4D is bad?

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MauricioPC
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by MauricioPC » 07 Mar 2014, 21:20

I don't think C4D is actually bad ... but I think C4D is expensive. Given I like FX, animation, only the studio version is an option.

Now, if you think C4D is the same price that Maya or 3ds Max, I think Autodesk offerings give more bang for the money. But it's just my opinion. I have a student license and I enjoy the software ... the price is a problem when most of the job openings for C4D are more specific to motion graphics stuff.


Cheers.

IslandDreamer
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by IslandDreamer » 07 Mar 2014, 22:02

MauricioPC wrote:I don't think C4D is actually bad ... but I think C4D is expensive.
I agree and it's notable that Maxon is the only major 3d vendor who hasn't reached out to the SI community with some kind of a crossgrade offer.

Pancho
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Pancho » 07 Mar 2014, 22:16

This fact is actually quite pleasant. I consider it highly inappropriate to have all those new "members" around here trying to take advantage of all the anger, fear and confusion. The more aggressive they try to "help" us brotherly, the more dodgy it feels.

Maketing wise this might be a clever move (from their pov) to collect a few straying sheep, but it feels rather sad that they need to come to the funeral party and be "helpful". If there's a nice product, people will drop by eventually and take a look in their own time.

azurecgi
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by azurecgi » 07 Mar 2014, 22:22

MauricioPC wrote:I don't think C4D is actually bad ... but I think C4D is expensive. Given I like FX, animation, only the studio version is an option.
You can buy a copy of Houdini ($4495 = £2678) for the same price as Cinema 4D Studio (£2600) and the Houdini price includes the first years maintenance! (Yes, I know the yearly subscription is rather expensive after the first year, but it is one amazing piece of software :D )

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MauricioPC
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by MauricioPC » 07 Mar 2014, 22:36

azurecgi wrote:
MauricioPC wrote:I don't think C4D is actually bad ... but I think C4D is expensive. Given I like FX, animation, only the studio version is an option.
You can buy a copy of Houdini ($4495 = £2678) for the same price as Cinema 4D Studio (£2600) and the Houdini price includes the first years maintenance! (Yes, I know the yearly subscription is rather expensive after the first year, but it is one amazing piece of software :D )
Yeah, that's why I think C4D is expensive.
Pancho wrote:This fact is actually quite pleasant. I consider it highly inappropriate to have all those new "members" around here trying to take advantage of all the anger, fear and confusion. The more aggressive they try to "help" us brotherly, the more dodgy it feels.

Maketing wise this might be a clever move (from their pov) to collect a few straying sheep, but it feels rather sad that they need to come to the funeral party and be "helpful". If there's a nice product, people will drop by eventually and take a look in their own time.
Yes and now. I think nobody would purchase this just because it's cheap. You buy it because it can add to your workflow. Anyway ... At the least is better than what AD has been offering us.

Truth be told, I'm still learning the AD survivors for jobs opportunities, but as my personal freelance tool, Softimage was the chosen one. After what happened, I'm tending more to the little guys (modo/lw).

IslandDreamer
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by IslandDreamer » 07 Mar 2014, 22:44

Pancho wrote:Maketing wise this might be a clever move (from their pov) to collect a few straying sheep, but it feels rather sad that they need to come to the funeral party and be "helpful". If there's a nice product, people will drop by eventually and take a look in their own time.
You're right, that this is all a marketing move on the part of the Modo, Lightwave and Houdini guys. But at least they demonstrate that they're interested in our business, right? Until earlier today, Autodesk was ready to jettison the lot of us active subscribers.

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gaboraa
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by gaboraa » 07 Mar 2014, 23:13

luchifer wrote: - I have read comments like "C4D is not in the same league as XSI"
Actually it is my comment if you are referring to the cgtalk discussions. I use c4d and love it but aside from its high price, it has some terminal problems for example it has a feature called vamp which was intended to be a similar of Gator but it fails to do the job and even it is not be able to transfer simple sphere uvs. So some tools doesn't work you expected to be. I think cinema 4d is not a production proven tool and it shines in the motion graphic areas only. I admit I love it but some parts of the app are so primitive and you will not find its rendering and other areas initiative and flexible. but again just try for yourself and be the judge of you own.

Pancho
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Pancho » 07 Mar 2014, 23:15

IslandDreamer wrote:But at least they demonstrate that they're interested in our business, right?
They aren't interested in our business. None of them. They are interested in making business with us, which is 99.99% a one way cash flow.

As soon as there is a cadaver, there are vultures.

IslandDreamer
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by IslandDreamer » 07 Mar 2014, 23:20

Pancho wrote:
IslandDreamer wrote:But at least they demonstrate that they're interested in our business, right?
They aren't interested in our business. None of them. They are interested in making business with us, which is 99.99% a one way cash flow.

As soon as there is a cadaver, there are vultures.
To your point, Modo's Brad Peebler just put up a fascinating post. http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discu ... =3&t=85630

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MauricioPC
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by MauricioPC » 07 Mar 2014, 23:28

IslandDreamer wrote:
Pancho wrote:
IslandDreamer wrote:But at least they demonstrate that they're interested in our business, right?
They aren't interested in our business. None of them. They are interested in making business with us, which is 99.99% a one way cash flow.

As soon as there is a cadaver, there are vultures.
To your point, Modo's Brad Peebler just put up a fascinating post. http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discu ... =3&t=85630
It's actually a nice post form him and I don't think he's wrong or a vulture.

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Mathaeus
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Mathaeus » 08 Mar 2014, 00:32

MauricioPC wrote: To your point, Modo's Brad Peebler just put up a fascinating post. http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discu ... =3&t=85630

It's actually a nice post form him and I don't think he's wrong or a vulture.
Yeah, Brad is master. Didn't felt in love in Modo that much, but their approach to users - perhaps the best I've ever seen.

Back to topic, yes, C4d is just expensive. There is their great talent to show, how middle versions are not enough. For example, no 2d motion blur, neither quaternions in broadcast . While full one, very close to price of Maya or Max, is still weak, full of limitations. Old school renderer, not having a fast 3d motion blur, highlights that doesn't look like any well known shading model, four or five texture samplers where no one is close to 3delight or V-Ray sampling, old school shader editor (no nodes), no render passes.
Shader assignment get lost when renaming the polygon tag (cluster in SI).
No love for modeling tools. It has operator stack, but this became slow with anything complex.
Regarding motion graphics, After Effects for me fits much better and faster in 'show me three or four effects so I'll chose one' category. For something more exact, let's say, a few elements have suddenly to do something different than main flow of 50-100 - not enough easy to do. Xpresso can't catch the ID of cloned objects, which is a nonsense, imho. And again, built in renderers, when it comes to 3d motion blur, are slower than for example, old Mental Ray's rasterizer.
Set of tools in full version - as gaboraa said, vamp thing that doesn't work, Cineman renderman connection that does not support hair ( what on the earth is supposed to do with such renderer, if not hair).
Finally, weak brand, to say it directly. There are cases when facility has to give a name of used 3d, in pitch or like - where Maya obviously sounds so much stronger.
The renderer "turtle" used by this scene, is not currently available. The "turtle" renderer will be used instead.

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mattmos
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by mattmos » 08 Mar 2014, 00:49

Does it have referencing yet? I see a lot of mograph jobs going with it, but no character stuff...

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MauricioPC
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by MauricioPC » 08 Mar 2014, 00:51

mattmos wrote:Does it have referencing yet? I see a lot of mograph jobs going with it, but no character stuff...
From what I read at the C4D forums, referencing may slow things down quite substantially in C4D with Characters.

luchifer
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by luchifer » 08 Mar 2014, 02:30

Hi, im not trying to sell Cinema 4D, it was just a question that has been bothering me. I too miss the render pass system from XSI, but for me at least, is way faster to work with xpresso and c4d than with xsi and ice (I know I have more limits with c4d, but I have to compromise quality for time)

I have some work done if you guys want to criticize: (just stills, some in zbrush, and a motorcycle created from a tutorial)

https://www.facebook.com/hunter.luchife ... 553&type=1

I have some animations too but I have to upload them too.

Newcomer (<20 posts) alert: please use the URL tags - HB

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: why not cinema 4d?

Post by Hirazi Blue » 08 Mar 2014, 11:03

Pancho wrote:
IslandDreamer wrote:But at least they demonstrate that they're interested in our business, right?
They aren't interested in our business. None of them. They are interested in making business with us, which is 99.99% a one way cash flow.

As soon as there is a cadaver, there are vultures.
While you are undoubtedly correct these other companies are "in it" for the money, their courtesy to us still stands in that they offer rebates. The way things are going, some (many?) of us, fleeing Autodesk, would have ended on there doorsteps anyway even without any special offer. So yes, it's capitalism, but it's capitalism at its "finest", as it's capitalism with a heart or at the very best capitalism with the pretense of having a heart, I dare say...
:D
...