Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

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xsi_fanatic
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Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by xsi_fanatic » 27 Mar 2015, 22:24

Hello Everyone,

This looks really cool. I'm wondering what it would take to produce a plugin like this with ICE (time and money wise) ? Would like some feedback from a tech guy.


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Rork
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by Rork » 28 Mar 2015, 15:38

Not to rain on your parade, but no developer is going to invest time anymore in new plugins for Softimage.

Even though it's really hard to say -and admit- that.....

Work with the stuff that is out there until it's no longer viable to use Softimage. In the meantime... learn something new to stay competitive in the marketplace..

rob
SI UI tutorials: Toolbar http://goo.gl/iYOL0l | Custom Layout http://goo.gl/6iP5xQ | RenderManager View http://goo.gl/b4ZkjQ

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xsi_fanatic
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by xsi_fanatic » 28 Mar 2015, 21:43

Rork wrote:Not to rain on your parade, but no developer is going to invest time anymore in new plugins for Softimage.

Even though it's really hard to say -and admit- that.....

Work with the stuff that is out there until it's no longer viable to use Softimage. In the meantime... learn something new to stay competitive in the marketplace..

rob
Thanks for the advise Rork. It still wouldn't hurt to know the costs and requirements. Don't forget we have Fabric Engine. If it was recreated there, there could still be benefits for Max and XSI. I believe there's still light at the end of the tunnel.

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FXDude
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by FXDude » 29 Mar 2015, 04:43

Rork wrote:Not to rain on your parade, but no developer is going to invest time anymore in new plugins for Softimage.

Even though it's really hard to say -and admit- that.....

Work with the stuff that is out there until it's no longer viable to use Softimage. In the meantime... learn something new to stay competitive in the [godforsaken] marketplace..

rob

If people making stuff for themselves/their productions still work-on and release stuff, I'd think it's because it's still and likely to remain for a decade or more, (as it's pretty much always been) the shortest/simplest path to what is is wanted as an end result in real terms while making abstraction of (manipulated) trends, labels or what can otherwise be pure superficial BS.

But if SI died, it would be because people/shops would stop using it
(before actually be worth doing so in terms of actual benefit vs. drawback of using less common/"unsupported" things),
as opposed to the other way around.

But if so, then what will we be accepting next? Rental? and then?

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Mathaeus
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by Mathaeus » 29 Mar 2015, 14:32

xsi_fanatic wrote: It still wouldn't hurt to know the costs and requirements. Don't forget we have Fabric Engine. If it was recreated there, there could still be benefits for Max and XSI. I believe there's still light at the end of the tunnel.
Why not to ask Eric Mootz or Ben Rogall directly, to configure details. What is the best platform, ICE, Fabric or anything else, perhaps they will know.
However there is small limitation of such approach, present in Max Hair Farm, too. If you want hairs to stick to geometry, in simulation too - typical, let's call it 'centrifugal sliding' of hairs is lost, you get only a carpet - like movement.
There were users of Max Hair Farm (gmh2, as simplified Hair Farm didn't existed in these times), who were ready to learn Softimage and ICE, also ready to go into unpleasant conversions on Hair Farm - ICE route, exactly because of immanent 'ability' of some ICE hair systems, to do not 'exist' when it comes to simulation, or better to say, to 'exist' only where user wants . Less than ten people, as far as I know, but let's say, very prominent users. This could answer to your previous post, why Kristinka Hair suddenly became ten times more complicated when it comes to simulation (or, 'point five' in tutorial). Simply, there were opposite requests, some people wanted the 'open', but also overcomplicated method - which was a good excuse for me, to leave this part, not really streamlined. I think Maya xGen also has to be connected to something simulated, doesn't provide built - in simulation.
Personally, I found Houdini somehow easier to get gmh2 style, than ICE. But don't have a time to bother with making anything streamlined, also don't see enough of potential users, so it will stay as personal setup, most likely.
By the way there's similar set of script for Modo, too.
The renderer "turtle" used by this scene, is not currently available. The "turtle" renderer will be used instead.

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xsi_fanatic
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by xsi_fanatic » 05 Apr 2015, 08:06

Mathaeus wrote:
xsi_fanatic wrote: It still wouldn't hurt to know the costs and requirements. Don't forget we have Fabric Engine. If it was recreated there, there could still be benefits for Max and XSI. I believe there's still light at the end of the tunnel.
Why not to ask Eric Mootz or Ben Rogall directly, to configure details. What is the best platform, ICE, Fabric or anything else, perhaps they will know.
However there is small limitation of such approach, present in Max Hair Farm, too. If you want hairs to stick to geometry, in simulation too - typical, let's call it 'centrifugal sliding' of hairs is lost, you get only a carpet - like movement.
There were users of Max Hair Farm (gmh2, as simplified Hair Farm didn't existed in these times), who were ready to learn Softimage and ICE, also ready to go into unpleasant conversions on Hair Farm - ICE route, exactly because of immanent 'ability' of some ICE hair systems, to do not 'exist' when it comes to simulation, or better to say, to 'exist' only where user wants . Less than ten people, as far as I know, but let's say, very prominent users. This could answer to your previous post, why Kristinka Hair suddenly became ten times more complicated when it comes to simulation (or, 'point five' in tutorial). Simply, there were opposite requests, some people wanted the 'open', but also overcomplicated method - which was a good excuse for me, to leave this part, not really streamlined. I think Maya xGen also has to be connected to something simulated, doesn't provide built - in simulation.
Personally, I found Houdini somehow easier to get gmh2 style, than ICE. But don't have a time to bother with making anything streamlined, also don't see enough of potential users, so it will stay as personal setup, most likely.
By the way there's similar set of script for Modo, too.
Hi Mathaeus,

In the XSI Sample library, there is a hair simulation with ICE that is extruded from a sphere. It also has a cylinder as an obstacle with some animation.

My question: is it possible to use that same method to create hair ? Meaning using the same initial setup, can we take it to an advanced level and begin shaping and modeling the hair strands to make it look like actual hair on a real character (similar to the hair styles you have in Kristinka)?

I tried to see if I could modify it but to no success. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this might be a limitation as well. Coz there's no point of hair simulation if you cannot preserve the original shape.

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Mathaeus
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by Mathaeus » 05 Apr 2015, 19:25

xsi_fanatic wrote:
In the XSI Sample library, there is a hair simulation with ICE that is extruded from a sphere. It also has a cylinder as an obstacle with some animation.

My question: is it possible to use that same method to create hair ? Meaning using the same initial setup, can we take it to an advanced level and begin shaping and modeling the hair strands to make it look like actual hair on a real character (similar to the hair styles you have in Kristinka)?
I'd say, this setup is more a nice generic example for those who want to build own hair system. If I'm correct, hair filler compound have no support for splitting. Interpolated hairs near hair splits are placed through head, or in some other weird way.
Strand dynamics network does not supports self - collision, also it's dependent on number of segments (if I'm correct). In practice it means, you can get believable simulation only if all hairs have the same length.
Generally, first two versions of Kristinka Hair, are trials to get something more, on top of that factory example. Version 3 has completely different system of interpolation, more robust and much faster, but also it's not generic anymore, asking more work and obeying some rules, like as much uniform triangulation of emitter. Instead of distance based query, v3 rely on plain cloning, based on pre - defined attributes. Simulation is left (more or less) to something else, let's say Syflex always been strongest and well known to people.
I tried to see if I could modify it but to no success. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this might be a limitation as well. Coz there's no point of hair simulation if you cannot preserve the original shape.
Of course it's possible to preserve the original shape, in many ways, but not by using these compounds, only. If Melena is working on your SI version, perhaps this is shortest path, I think there's 'strand groom force' which is a force for going back to original shape.
The renderer "turtle" used by this scene, is not currently available. The "turtle" renderer will be used instead.

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xsi_fanatic
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by xsi_fanatic » 05 Apr 2015, 21:43

Of course it's possible to preserve the original shape, in many ways, but not by using these compounds, only. If Melena is working on your SI version, perhaps this is shortest path, I think there's 'strand groom force' which is a force for going back to original shape.
I haven't seen any simulation process done with Melena. I need to see some examples in a video tutorial as I am not a tech guy. I can manage to create hair with Melena as shown in the online tutorials on Vimeo, but then what ? I need more guidance for simulation.

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FXDude
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by FXDude » 07 Apr 2015, 06:53

I've always thought of making hair by having them in "tubes" then simulating the tubes..

XSI hair realtime using Syflex (2008)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=324tgELe6Lo
JamesCGI 7 years ago wrote:Interesting, is there are more information on this technique?
rgbxyzuv 7 years ago wrote:nothing special.. just a syflex mesh and a hair object, the hair object has a cage deform to the syflex object.
As the interaction with Syflex in XSI is realtime it is possible to put some pins and control specific points of the object.
Hairs system with Ice Strands and pointcloud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcoyb_6ipwo


I suggest somehow playing/pausing/scrubbing that ICE (accelerated) clip locally

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FXDude
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by FXDude » 07 Apr 2015, 07:17

XSI
Rarely any plugins necessary.

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Draise
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by Draise » 07 Apr 2015, 16:53

Wow, there you go! No plugin! Awesome speed breakdown/tutorial.

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xsi_fanatic
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by xsi_fanatic » 07 Apr 2015, 17:29

Draise wrote:Wow, there you go! No plugin! Awesome speed breakdown/tutorial.
That is an ICE plugin.
Last edited by xsi_fanatic on 07 Apr 2015, 18:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Draise
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by Draise » 07 Apr 2015, 17:37

Ah sorry. My mistake. Wouldn't that though, be a compound in a sense?

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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by xsi_fanatic » 07 Apr 2015, 18:27

Draise wrote:Ah sorry. My mistake. Wouldn't that though, be a compound in a sense?
Yes, custom built. But it hasn't been released to the public. I know this because I got in touch with the person who built it.

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by Hirazi Blue » 07 Apr 2015, 19:00

Rork wrote:Not to rain on your parade, but no developer is going to invest time anymore in new plugins for Softimage.
Getting developers to invest time & money in new stuff for our little EOL-ed software might be a rather pointless exercise, indeed, but motivating all developers to unveil/unhide all that beautiful RnD that we saw demoed but were never allowed to play with, would sound slightly more realistic.
;)
...

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Re: Maya Hair Plugin - GMH2

Post by xsi_fanatic » 07 Apr 2015, 19:50

Hirazi Blue wrote:
Rork wrote:Not to rain on your parade, but no developer is going to invest time anymore in new plugins for Softimage.
Getting developers to invest time & money in new stuff for our little EOL-ed software might be a rather pointless exercise, indeed, but motivating all developers to unveil/unhide all that beautiful RnD that we saw demoed but were never allowed to play with, would sound slightly more realistic.
;)
True. But thinking outside the box for a minute, with the aid of Fabric Engine, why not hit 3 birds with one stone. Am I right or left ?