OK, so the sky isn't falling, but AD isn't marketing SI well

[wacom]

While I now don't believe SI is no longer under development, going to be killed tomorrow etc., the marketing of si is still 3rd rate...even less than mudbox AFAIK. Since the softimage employee's hands are tied, I'd like to hear someone directly involved in AD marketing explain just why si is so poorly marketed?

Where is the SI in these- where are the equivalent references...even a few by AD?

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/in ... eID=123112

http://area.autodesk.com/inhouse/custst ... e_assassin

Come on, they even have the nerve to hint at games where SI played a major role in their development- sometimes for nearly the whole development.

And here...it's not even listed...? I think I see some white space at the bottom where it could be squeezed in...

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc ... d=14898170

They love to pimp out Assassins Creed marketing...but fail to mention how SI is an integral part of the pipeline esp. for the cut scenes.

Where is the front and center interview/review of Thiago Costa and all the great work he's been doing for Ubisoft and in making ICE tutorials and simulation tools using si?

Yes, we understand that you have to get approval etc. for each movie you list etc. but um...why not do it for SI every firth time instead of Maya and Max EACH time?

OK, so we know internally AD still loves the SI team etc. so why not show the love in public for a change instead of this taboo affair?! ;)

So no the sky isn't falling, but the marketing ceiling sure seems low for SI.

[dirtydog]

Wacom the avid chairman said that Xsi 6 was a negected package to re_write the core, again when ice was launched he again said Xsi was a neglected package, well Xsi is still a neglected package(although very useable), it seems all of Xsi eggs are in the ice basket( watch the siggraph master classes). I can understand AD, wanting to pamper the mainstay Maya and the mainstream 3dmax to use the power of ice, but decisions have to be made, and it is quite clear to me that when my subscription is up next May, or sooner to move. I 'am a member of lightwave hardcore program from day one, although still not perfect( I have the beta lightwave 10/core package) they are at least moving in the right direction with the right man( Rob Powers at the helm, to produce a winning( already a exellent package) package( and given his background, he knows what is needed to pipeline a successfull package). Xsi has been going nowhere for the last 3 years apart from a few titbits thrown in( again to pamper to maya and 3dmax pipeline). honestly you would be just as well buying Maya or 3dmax to go on using Xsi, but the money would buy you houdini( now there's a thought).

[electricgeisha]

@ Wacom I agree.
@ DirtyDog Totally agree.

I jumped into Maya the other day thinking I will try and love it ...took me 3 mins to want to beat my PC senseless.

I have said plenty now and really have no clue what the deal with the total lack of zest for SI on AD's behalf.

Someone over at the AREA was asking why no current books on Softimage in the last 3 yrs from Autodesk.. Maya/Max get plenty.
http://area.autodesk.com/forum/autodesk ... page-last/

All these things all make us wonder.. but we are always treated like "Oh you read to much in to our behavior" from AD.

It gets patronizing.

[wacom]

Xsi has been going nowhere for the last 3 years apart from a few titbits thrown in( again to pamper to maya and 3dmax pipeline).

No offense, but while the development of SI might not suite your needs, to argue that over the last three years it has stalled or slowed down is ridiculous. You're even leaving out that they went through 95% of the program and multi-threaded it. There have been countless updates and improvements, not the least of which is FaceRobot (which is also still seeing a lot of development love). These are just a few of the MAJOR improvements or additions, there are numerous smaller or small improvements that have been added. The only one I can say that has made SI, in some ways, WORSE, is unstable builds and shaders from mr being included now.

OK, no shell modifier, and some other small things, but over all, they're doing a great job at keeping the SI value up- ICE or no ICE IMHO. Besides, huge swaths of the program, while not "updated" in the last 5 years, are actually still VERY good tools- very competent tools. If you don't see what you want, then ASK for it, and get others to ask for it.

If you came into this thread to bash anything more than the AD marketing departments handling of SI, and you've come here to try and promote LW, which I would argue is WORSE off than it was just a few months ago, then you're barking up the wrong tree. If the SI ship was sinking, LW, unless they start pulling out something PUBLICLY amazing, is about the last place I'd turn anymore. Sorry, been there, done that, and can honestly say- good riddance. LW at times to me is like that friend we all have that never left the home town, and never got over high school. We've moved on- they haven't.

I'd rather use Houdini, C4D, Messiah and MODO, Maya, Blender or MAX (yes even MAX) before going back to LW. I am not being sarcastic either. I don't care how heart felt and gooie it makes people's hearts- I just don't have time for that nonsense anymore and I don't care to do pre-viz since I know how to use a pencil and paper. Besides, doesn't DAZ and Blender have that market almost wrapped up sans for some crazy camera action fun toy thingy jiggy? I don't even mean that as slander BTW- more that why on gawds earth did they decide that was their niche?

[Rez007]

@Wacom... I don’t know why you have to bash someone by putting a specific statement wrapped in "angry faces," while all they did was suggest a viable alternative, and then you go directly against your statement by suggesting alternative software means as well - makes your point kind of moot. Alternative software and solutions might be a way that some of us could be heading.

@General

I completely agree with the way Softimage is being handled not just in marketing but the future outlook as well. The screen shot that was posted above looks exactly like the way I have done that survey many times...check the "other" box and type in "...where in the world is Softimage?" Even in the additional comments section I have listed my concerns in regards to this. The link that wacom posted, which listed a lot of Autodesk's software that is available, would a perfect section to have Softimage listed...there is plenty of space, but hmmm... not there.

In addition, I think the first link that wacom posted is the most important and most concerning. If Autodesk is going to advertise standalones of Max and Maya, then where is Softimage? They have the new premium bundles there, but if you click on that, it just mentions Softimage ICE...not Softimage as a whole. Not having a Standalone of Softimage mentioned, nor a Suite that is Softimage/Mudbox/Motion builder available, unless you are in Japan, is a huge issue regardless of what anyone wants to say or believe. While I haven't checked myself, but I have read a post, that there isn’t a cross grade from Softimage to Max or Maya available (I would like to think that could be a mistake depending on the information that the reseller was provided). Nonetheless, the way Softimage is being portrayed by just mentioning “Softimage ICE” is of concern to me as I assume others as well. To me, companies who do use Softimage, now with it being packed into the new Suites, are just going to pick out the parts they like, and that is what is going to be developed by Autodesk. I see the rest of the software as a whole being mostly negated.

Everyone was pumped about ICE Kinematics coming out, well it is here, and as luceric suggested, was developed for TDs, not the general user of Softimage. Well, are the other things that are coming out going to be geared towards TDs like ICE Geometry, and the general user won’t be able to grasp it? Who knows? If that is the case, then I don’t see it really being a viable alternative to standard modeling for the general user. In my opinion, if you take ICE out of the Softimage equation which was mentioned earlier, I really don’t see any updates to the software, except Face Robot, being that really impressive. To me, while it was great to have IES lighting finally integrated, it seems like it was more-or-less like a "throw them a bone" kind of deal to make the common Softimage user happy. I doubt that was at the top of the agenda.

At first, which I hope is still the case at worst, is that I thought Autodesk was just really lazy and bad about their marketing for Softimage. However, with these recent press releases and again the lack of advertising Softimage, I actually do think Autodesk knows EXACTLY what it is doing in terms of marketing the product. Autodesk didn't become a super giant and to be in the position of where they are now, by being stupid in the marketing department...

[wacom]

LOOK, my thread was never meant to be about "alternatives" to SI. I know I don't have control over it any better than any other thread can remain on topic. I LOVE using SI 99% of the time (which is a lot more than most programs), and don't really see an alternative out there, at least for me, anytime soon, that wouldn't mean giving up quite a lot of features that I've grown to love and depend on- yes some of which are quite "old".

Anyway- this thread was more about how poorly AD seems to market SI. I wouldn't say sabotage, but neglected, once again, yes. I want all the good that CAN come with a major company owning SI now- including marketing muscle, esp. if I'm to put up with the bad.

So I got a little raw about someone stubbing in on the thread and tossing LW in there as an alternative tp SO- why? Because IT IS NOT an alternative to SI. Maybe for space FX shots, product ads, etc. However, for animation and several other areas, only die-hard fans would argue LW is a viable option. TRUST me- I've used it before- and it's what drove me to look at Messiah and XSI. Several other people I know, who were die hard supporters of LW, have left, and now will NEVER go back. Does this mean they will only use SI? NO- some are using other software. The fact remains though- all of them wondered what took them so long to stop drinking the cool aid. Nobody is saying that drinking a tall glass of AD pond water tastes better- but that's reality.

Besides- do we really want to talk poor marketing? The only thing worse than the neglect that SI gets is the HORRIBLY handled PR and marketing LW gets. If that's the face of what AD would do to SI, then I'd rather have SI not even have a web page.

Go ahead- make a scene! Then try and animate it in LW- the rest of us will be three projects down the road when you finish.

______________________

While I'd like more "user friendly tools" too esp. when it comes to some more basic UV editor updates, and basic modeling operators, to name a few, do you guys really think there has been NO improvements for the experienced average user? Latest MR, sysflex cloth updates, FaceRobot, UV editor updates, addition of many render tree nodes (could use some re-working of UI), a handful of more user friendly compounds for particle FX etc.

I mean...soon we're probably going to have a really swank physics engine too- that AFAIK, isn't going to require = of an MIT or CMU education.

IS it perfect- NO- things could be better for us- but why are people not listing specifically what they want updated and how? I know some of you are, but a lot of you are expecting SI to suddenly be some other kind of program that it always was- which is a high end, extensible program meant for mid-to-large production facilities. The fact that it's also user friendly in terms of UI and consistency makes it more than usable for small teams and freelancers, but that doesn't mean it is focus on that as the ideal user. What are the real alternatives? Houdini and Maya- which is more user friendly STILL than SI?

Again- things could be better- but let's not use THIS thread to pound on those things, and instead focus this thread on the marketing of SI. Another thread detailing improvements we want, that are not ICE specific, would be appreciated.

[dirtydog]

LW at times to me is like that friend we all have that never left the home town.
Wacom quote
That sounds a bit like XSI at the moment

The point i was making( of which you started the thread, if you can remember) is that newtek is now pushing ahead with next gen software and updating the older lightwave until core is completed and marketing it properly as a prime 3d app, what did Graham bell tell us, they have to slip it in as a bundle hoping studios will use it. At least Avid had a good marketing campaign.

Xsi sounds like a friend you bring a long just to make up the numbers, nobody really wants him there, just for ballast ( it deserves better)

Wacom you lost the plot in your last reply....

1 I never said i disliked XSI on the contrary i said it was very useable all gooie
2 I never bashed anything, your the one who is MR Angry
3 I'am not barking up any tree, i use different packages to suit my needs and lightwave is a very usefull one.

You are correct that development is continuing, but every software house develops.

There was apathy in every XSI forum when AD bought it, now that apathy is turning to fear. I hope i 'am wrong, i will still be in subscription for 2012, i will wait till then.

And to quote Rob Powers..... Follow your bliss

[wacom]

And to quote Rob Powers..... Follow your bliss

It all makes sense now, they toss out Jay, put in Mr. Powers, and distribute LSD to core members while forming a compound for groupies in Texas.

Maybe I just don't see it in LW...and maybe it's because I didn't drink the cool aid and trance out at the spiral logo all day.

"LW- it's annoying fan base is Everywhere!" I think that was the LW9 tag line right?

Core died when Roth "left" Newtek as far as I'm concerned.

BTW- sometimes I follow my bliss down a dark hole, and when I come out all I want to do is throttle on Newtek for their treatment of LW over the past 4 "major" releases. It's sad really.

[Hirazi Blue]

That's enough Lightwave for one day, I'm afraid...
Let's try to get this thread back on topic...

[wacom]

YES, so AD PR/Marketing blunders, mis-steps, and even lack of is the topic of this thread- and hopefully ideas/points that can be raised to HELP them sort it out and let us constructively be heard (is there still hope for this thread?).

For starters- take the questionnaire on the autodesk site, and let them know what you think of the near total lack of SI in applicable places.

[Rez007]

@wacom... I made one simple comment on not to be hypocritical when someone mentions an alternative means of a software that seems to be re-innovating itself, regardless of how you felt of it from the past. The stance you took made your point moot. That was I all was saying in regards to that, I didn't think your next response was going to be basically about this.

I am the last person to actually mention to suggest things, other than ICE, as away to go forward. I have done the survey many times (which I assume you have too), gone on the subscription site and have done the "wish list" or future feature request, I have talked directly on the phone to individuals at Autodesk, and I have been on a couple of BETAs. If what you are looking for as a small developer or as a freelancer is not on the "agenda" nor is being asked by a large studio...then good luck of having it integrated.

Most of my original reply was in regards to your thread topic, even though some of it might have been indirectly stated. I used to be a Max user, I came over to Softimage, thinking it was better for me, but I am now having possible regrets. I am not the type of person who is a "fan boy" towards specific software. Where ever I decide to put my money, I expect that, and as it should, be put to good use.

As my closing comments from my previous post suggested, given the current marketing stance from Autodesk...I believe they know exactly what the future of Softimage holds and how to market it towards that goal, whatever it may be.

[wacom]

Rez007 - I had almost no problem with your post, sans the part that had a problem with MY post! Let's just call it good OK and move on- I am sorry if I ruffled the wrong or too many feathers.

[Rez007]

I was writing my previous statement while other posts were being made - no problem man..it is all cool.

As what can be done better in terms of marketing for Softimage?... Well, everything. I know that seems very vague, but it is true. As the links that you provided at the start of this thread, are prefect examples of the lack of support for Softimage by Autodesk. I think pointing out the negatives like you, myself, and others have done in some of these posts are good ways to start.

1.) A Standalone image and description of Softimage should be up there with Max and Maya. (On the link you provided)
2.) It should, without-a-doubt, be listed on the page of the link that you posted with the software list. (It is unbelievable that it is not on that).
3.) Dedicate some time towards it at Siggraph like Max and Maya - not customer showcases. But wait, that is over already. Autodesk dropped the ball on that too. (The customer showcases from The Mill and Blur hardly showed much of Softimage at all.)
4.) Have a bundle that is Softimage/Mudbox/Motion Builder available to non-Japanese areas,
5.) If Softimage is being shown as an added benefit - "companion" to a Max or Maya pipeline, then the "whole" of Softimage should be mentioned rather than just ICE. (This hand-in-hand, is what tells me the future of Softimage)
6.) Listen to the community for other features to be added in future releases, and not just the requests of large studios. (Units of measure, and a thickness modifier are a couple of very long standing requests.)
7.) Better integration of MR - one of the main reasons I came over to Softimage was because of this. Thinking it being native, it should be the best integrated. I see massive improvements with MR in regards to integration with Max. The Tech demo of Iray was tied into, if not, integrated into Max.
8.) Having cross-over packaging available for current Softimage users so they dont feel stranded.
9.) Make same books already or some more current information/tutorials. (Anyway you look at this, any new-comer who is looking to find learning material, and if the majority is "old," then they would be easily turned away.)
10.) The Area was supposed to be the "be-all, end-all" of informational communities for Autodesk software - Extremely poor in how it is currently, especially for Softimage.

I can list a lot more too if need be. I just wonder if anyone that actually makes decisions to anything related to Softimage actually reads these things, and if they do, does anything about it?

[dirtydog]

Ice had a beginning, no progressive middle(which we need just now), AD seen the end, that's why they bought it. 35 million dollars is nothing to a company like AD(pocket change).

Ad has got to be the biggest digital content company in the world and just like the object of the board game monopoly, put all your fellow players out of the game. pixologic made Goz for maya and 3dmax, pixologic are a smart company, no need to make Goz for softimage(well we all know that now...don't we).

Avid knew what they were doing, they sucked everyone in, even AD but i still get value for my money.

I started an innocent thread Goz, i could'nt believe the apathy, but after carefull thought it does'nt matter what app you use, its what you can do to get to where your going.

The second post in the Goz thread was cynical after seeing zbrush 4 shadowbox, matchmaker and clip brushes movie( a must see), modeling in zbrush, retopology/uvs,maps in 3dcoat and throw it into XSI( XSI doing nothing, or third best). I don't think anyone has responded, pity.

Wacom its good to get the blood flowing( passion), Rez007 level headed reasoning.

Me, i was only saying

[electricgeisha]

@Dirtydog I agree, I really feel the future is not as bright as Bellsey try to make outlast week and after the suite bundling. I personally am totally disillusioned now.

Also you make a great point of GOZ if Pixologic are not supporting then I would assume that they have some inside info of their decision, they are the polar opposite of AD they tell there customers everything before the fact, listen and implement... oh I think that's development!? And sorry AD company policies or not, size of your company or not, you need to figure that out.

Oh well I don't want to sound like a broken record but I don't think the future is hugely bright anymore for SI.... but I really want to be proven wrong.

[wacom]

Are we really going to view if SI has Go-Z or not as a true indicator of the "troubles" with softimage? No offense, but I just don't see how that is an indicator, even if it is a missed feature.

Besides- Pixologic and Autodesk ARE competitors so I doubt they really want to help them at all- but feel they must since such a huge portion of their user base is using Maya and Max.

I just don't think this relates to how AD is handling SI IMHO. Sorry.

Besides, under that kind of logic, since Vray, and Final Render haven't made it over yet, then SI should have died a painful death eons ago.