I can not adapt to other software

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Shredder565
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by Shredder565 » 15 Nov 2016, 02:51

i think if they incorporated a 'Softimage layout' to make as an option, it'd help tremendously.


One would think it wouldn't be that tough to do..

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Mathaeus
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by Mathaeus » 15 Nov 2016, 12:21

Shredder565 wrote:i think if they incorporated a 'Softimage layout' to make as an option, it'd help tremendously.


One would think it wouldn't be that tough to do..
Devil's advocate will say, they never did anything consistent for Mayans, now we are expecting the solution for SI users... :D but yeah that's only devil's advocate.
1 : 1 match is impossible, while adapting to Maya defaults simply never worked for me, or , worked for few minutes until I found a tons of accidentally animated parameters in Maya. S is set key in Maya, so had to change this thing first, to something harmless.
I think I'll post a few tips here in next few days, what I found useful, at least to start some discussion. For now, have no courage to go with complete set of scripts. While MEL itself isn't that hard to understand, (interface is mainly MEL based), there are many similar commands, or things that behaves different on different loading sequences. In short, many possible negative consequences of any significant replacement of defaults, I'm afraid.

Bellsey
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by Bellsey » 15 Nov 2016, 14:33

Shredder565 wrote:i messed around with maya 2014.

I couldn't even figure out how to move verticies. i just say there looking at a sphere in what is supposed to be the most 'powerful' and 'best ' program ever and i couldn't figure out how to even get started in modelling.


At least with Max i got far enough in 1999 to learn some of the basics of modelling. although it wasn't very intuitive.

that's why i like softimage. very easy to figure out.

I just don't see why, if they bought it to kill it, autodesk doesn't keep it in circulation. it really is hurting alot of people.
Seriously? cmon?

In Maya, select a mesh, click and hold right mouse button, and select verts from the marking menu, then select whatever verts you need and move with the standard manipulation tools. Its been like that since well as far back as I can recall. You can even use the hot keys. That isn't really massively different to Soft (nee XSI) and not hard to pick up.

luchifer
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by luchifer » 15 Nov 2016, 20:11

Bellsey wrote:
Shredder565 wrote:i messed around with maya 2014.

I couldn't even figure out how to move verticies. i just say there looking at a sphere in what is supposed to be the most 'powerful' and 'best ' program ever and i couldn't figure out how to even get started in modelling.


At least with Max i got far enough in 1999 to learn some of the basics of modelling. although it wasn't very intuitive.

that's why i like softimage. very easy to figure out.

I just don't see why, if they bought it to kill it, autodesk doesn't keep it in circulation. it really is hurting alot of people.
Seriously? cmon?

In Maya, select a mesh, click and hold right mouse button, and select verts from the marking menu, then select whatever verts you need and move with the standard manipulation tools. Its been like that since well as far back as I can recall. You can even use the hot keys. That isn't really massively different to Soft (nee XSI) and not hard to pick up.
its also easier to use workspaces (wich XSI dont have), for example Maya Workspace: Modeling - Standard (right corner of the screen). At the right side of the UI you'll find vertex / edge / polygon just like in XSI (plus some commonly used modeling tools). Or just click the modeling icon (right corner of the screen, the one with the hammer and bricks).

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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by luceric » 15 Nov 2016, 21:24

luchifer wrote: its also easier to use workspaces (wich XSI dont have), for example Maya Workspace: Modeling - Standard (right corner of the screen).
sure we have workspaces in XSI, they're just called Layouts. As for the modelling toolkit UI in Maya.. the guys that made it were doing to it to bring Max's modelling ease of use to Maya, so yes, it would be easier for Shredder. It's a tab on the right in that older 2014 version, where it's kind of like there are two modelling workflows in one app.

But I would argue that arguing that moving vertices can be easy is not very important. The facts are that we made XSI with a consumer using the software on his windows PC (we were part of Microsoft at the time), while Maya was made as a platform for TDs in a film studio to build something around. The main command panel in XSI probably wouldn't have been made if we had studios in mind; these guys just want hotkeys with mouse button combinations and basically no UI.

luchifer
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by luchifer » 15 Nov 2016, 22:00

didnt remember XSI layouts, but maya workspace let you customize shortcuts depending on your workspace, and also automatically change the shelves, to reflect your workspace. I do remember using shortcuts in XSI for Edge, vertex and poly (E, T and forgot)

I don't love Maya (although I should), but I do like the minimal UI, because back in the old days I had more space to work in Maya than in XSI. Now we have bigger monitors, so that isn't an issue anymore (although 4K XSI I suppose will be an issue since its not supported)

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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by jonmoore » 15 Nov 2016, 22:11

The core thing that stops me from moving to Maya is that it still feels like a collection of plugins rather than a unified artist focused user experience. Huge improvements have been made over the last 3/4 release cycles but it's still far from being the unified experience of XSI. The fact that the designers of XSI managed to build something with so much modular power feel so unified still amazes me every day.

As for the necessity of moving on, I'm pretty certain I'll be using XSI alongside Houdini for at least the next 5 years. Maybe the impossible will happen and Maya will start to feel like more of a unified system but I can't see it happening any time soon.

luceric
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by luceric » 15 Nov 2016, 23:29

luchifer wrote:didnt remember XSI layouts, but maya workspace let you customize shortcuts depending on your workspace, and also automatically change the shelves, to reflect your workspace
That shelf thing is only a feature in Maya because there can only be one shelf.

In XSI, not only does it also remember the current tabs of shelves per layout, you can have an unlimited number of toolbars and shelves, vertical or horizontal, and stack and organize them how you want. You're not limited to just picking the current tab per workspace, you can have completely layout-specific toolbars.

We don't have a UI to select the keyboard mapping when you change layout, but it can be done by embedding a script in the layout as it is in Maya. in XSI, there is an editor to set the properties of view in XSI layout, set custom scripts and other relationships between views so selecting in one will update another in the layout.

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myara
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by myara » 17 Nov 2016, 13:45

Bellsey wrote:In Maya, select a mesh, click and hold right mouse button, and select verts from the marking menu, then select whatever verts you need and move with the standard manipulation tools. Its been like that since well as far back as I can recall. You can even use the hot keys. That isn't really massively different to Soft (nee XSI) and not hard to pick up.
Just be sure you don't click on anything that isn't a vertex. This point filter selection will work only if you can click with extremely precision over a point. Miss it and you'll end up selecting something else, like a joint or another object, and your point filter selection disappear.

If you want a XSI like point filter selection that will select only points until you decide otherwise, then use the F9 (or bind this to another key closer to your hand). This right click and drag idea is actually pretty cool but I don't understand the logic why the filter disappear with a miss click. I wish there was a way to customize this menu to change this behavior.
luchifer wrote:its also easier to use workspaces (wich XSI dont have), for example Maya Workspace: Modeling - Standard (right corner of the screen).
I've been using Maya for years but I'm not sure what do you mean with workspaces... Can anyone explain it? I can't find info about it.

If you are going to use Maya and can choose a version, try to use Maya 2016 Extension 2 or later.
2014 was still something like Maya 2013 + NEX Plugin (which was much better than Maya 2013 vanilla but still, sucked). 2015 got a little better and in 2016 they finally managed to merge the NEX tools with the old ones.

Well, to be fair, any software will have all this annoying things and bugs that you'll have to learn to workaround them.

Talking about annoying things, the other day I found this great option in the SDK Manual called barycentric method inside the deformerWeights command. To my surprise it's been there for a while. The sad part is that, it just doesn't work. At all. lol

So well, Maya is getting better with each release, but it still way behind the old Softimage from a user POV.
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Mathaeus
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by Mathaeus » 17 Nov 2016, 16:02

myara wrote: I've been using Maya for years but I'm not sure what do you mean with workspaces... Can anyone explain it? I can't find info about it.
Feature of Maya 2017 introduced this summer. Similar to XSI layouts + custom keymap can be assigned to specific workspace. Still, there is a room for improvement - for now, as an 'price' of improvement, Maya don't remember size of un-docked windows - windowPrefs.mel is always the same. Anyway this seems to be recognized by AD, perhaps there's fix on the road.

P.S. I would also consider SI, and Max too, as far more consistent and solid for user. However I think a good bit of that is a side effect of huge TD and programmer's community. Once so many people are able to build their own solution, no one cares about good defaults.

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Maximus
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by Maximus » 24 Nov 2016, 11:52

Tryin to get maya growing on me but i seriously cant. It needs so much customization that when you are done you have 0 mood to start creating 3d. So many useless clicks, convoluted workflows to do simple stuff.. I have no idea how that software can be the standard in computer graphic.. Id rather go with max. Also maybe its a trial issue, but when i close Maya it hangs for 1 minute lol. everytime

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Shredder565
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by Shredder565 » 24 Nov 2016, 15:51

Maximus wrote:Tryin to get maya growing on me but i seriously cant. It needs so much customization that when you are done you have 0 mood to start creating 3d. So many useless clicks, convoluted workflows to do simple stuff.. I have no idea how that software can be the standard in computer graphic.. Id rather go with max. Also maybe its a trial issue, but when i close Maya it hangs for 1 minute lol. everytime

Same here. Once i get re familair with max, I'm certain i could be as good as that as with softimage. it'd just take another two years out of my life.

Oh well. I can't remember if softimage had a trial period, but I think it did. If I HAD too...I'd just reformat every 30 days and reuse the trial period. a pain in the ass, but for me, softimage is LITERALLY a life saver. i'd be so beyond bored with life, seeing as how everyone i know is married and no one has time to DO anything....and not being the best looking person myself, I have no hope of joining them in that married area.....it's the only way i have to make it feel like i'm making some kind of progress in life.

Sad as that case may sound :).

One reason why i'm so pissed autodesk is taking away the rights for people to buy it. it shows such a short sightedness that iwonder if any of them have any real idea what it is they bought.

luchifer
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by luchifer » 24 Nov 2016, 20:42

Understanding the Maya data flow, this is by all means harder than creating a few little scripts - so.... no way to work with this software, without a basic scripting knowledge, or, without TD in room.

But it is easy once you understand a workflow. It works with Zbrush, Cinema and all the programs we know. You need to understand them.

Besides, scripting is part of the learning experience of most software, there's a lot of free scripts for Maya in the web and very little things that don't have a tutorial for.

And also, why is "acceptable" to learn to script in Houdini, but not in Maya? Why one needs to learn every acronym in the world for Houdini and praise it, while at the same time attacking Maya for the very same thing?

pointdist("../nullPoint", $PT, "../nullPrim", -1, 0) <---- this gets applauded by everyone in the industry
int $range_start = $rangeStart; <------ this is "too hard" to learn

nodeway

Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by nodeway » 24 Nov 2016, 22:09

luchifer wrote:
Understanding the Maya data flow, this is by all means harder than creating a few little scripts - so.... no way to work with this software, without a basic scripting knowledge, or, without TD in room.
But it is easy once you understand a workflow. It works with Zbrush, Cinema and all the programs we know.
For years I thought that there is something wrong with me, because I couldn't get Maya.
But then I learned Houdini, Max, Modo, UE4, Unity, Fusion and couple others. In many I know how to script and their C++/C# API.
After that I stopped thinking that there is something wrong with me.

Maya is THE problem, not me.

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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by Bellsey » 26 Nov 2016, 18:02

Interesting observation about moving to Max thinking its easier than Maya, when in fact they're really the same. Neither one is actually any easier to learn than the other.

I've never liked Max personally, compared to Maya and Softimage I've always found it cumbersome to use. But it didn't stop me learning it and using it. I run a dept in a company where it's a our core 3d software, so I pretty much have to get on with it. And I have no problem with that. So I never really understand the view that software itself has some kind of blockage to actually learning it. It's all very doable, if you actually want to and have to.
We trained chimps and put them into space, so learning software shouldn't really be that much of a problem. :-)

Regarding Maya hanging on shutdown, try disabling the CIP - Customer Involvement Program. You can uncheck the box, but add a line in the Maya.env
This was a known issue in the past and that was the fix.

jonmoore
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Re: I can not adapt to other software

Post by jonmoore » 26 Nov 2016, 21:52

I think with any DCC much of the user experience is heavily influenced by cognitive bias.

I work with a range of creative agencies (mainly in advertising, ID and graphic design) and provide them with consultancy services regarding creative technologies. Because of this I have to maintain knowledge of all the main DCC players and some CAD technologies too. My personal DCC preferences are for Softimage and Houdini but it's essential I keep an open mind regarding other DCC technologies and how they fit the specific needs of individual clients.

I had an interesting brief recently from an advertising agency client that are looking to move on from their reliance on Softimage/ICE. They had already ruled out the obvious choice of Houdini (artist preference within their studio), so this left us with a shortlist of C4D (paired with X-Particles) and 3ds Max (paired with ThinkingParticles). Much as I said I have to maintain an open mind, in truth I had an extreme cognitive bias against 3ds Max for much the same reasons as Bellsey. However once we'd dug into ThinkingParticles and the manner in which it integrates at a very deep level with Max it became the obvious choice. It was home from home for artists with a deep knowledge of ICE and is actually more performant than ICE (which really surprised me). Whilst there was no denying that X-Particles has a far more approachable UX it lacked the depth of ThinkingParticles. The downside of TP is that it can occasionally be held back by the single threaded nature of the Max core. Obviously both Max and C4D (and Maya for that matter) have engoing projects to multithread enable their core (SideFX were well ahead of the pack here - http://www.multithreadingandvfx.org/cou ... oudini.pdf), but right now it's still a stumbling block.

In truth, if ThinkingParticles was available for Maya, Max wouldn't have been in the picture. But seeing as Cebas are yet to deliver their long promised Maya integration, both the artists at the agency and I were put in a position where we had to re-access Max and it must be said over the last few iterations the Max team have removed much of the clunkiness of old and many innovations have been put in place that most independent observers would have expected to see from the Maya team first (Max Creation Graph being the most obvious).

I also mentor through my old college (LCP now The London School of Creative Arts) and approximately 75% of the students about to enter the world of commercial art (with 3d skills) have a preference for Houdini. I suspect that's because this is the first generation of arts graduates you could describe as true 'digital natives'. Scripting languages such as Python and Javascript were a part of their curriculum since they were 11/12 and many of them were dabbling with the likes of Unity and Unreal Engine before the age of 16. They see themselves simply as artists and don't identify with the term 'technical artist'. It will be interesting to see how DCC technologies develop over the next few years considering a basic knowledge of scripting languages is more common amongst arts students not just those who studied computer science. This new breed of artist are as happy working in a script based creative tool such as Processing as they are in Photoshop.

I'm pretty certain if I were 21 again, Houdini would be my weapon of choice too (probably because my own interests are more centred on procedural animation techniques rather than character animation and suchlike).

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