kitchen shot

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Kzin
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 07 Mar 2012, 17:08

gustavoeb wrote:This is the image created only with the local samples at 1 technique...
Min 0.5
Max 10,000
Quality 15
Cuttof 0

Rendertime was 48 minutes (not too big of a difference it seems and it actually looks better). But having quality over 1 still boggles me, that should not be the way to do stuff...
i use way less max samples normally, 250 to 600 for example, but with quality values ranging from 6 to 15.
from the scenes i had until now, it made more sense to use higher quality values. BUT this depends on the shot, the amount of mb you have to render.
so its really good to get some more examples here.

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ActionArt
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by ActionArt » 07 Mar 2012, 17:12

I tried setting FG at 200 rays and 15 points and reducing reflection bounces to 2. Here's the results:

3 minutes on a quad core:

Image

Still a bit grainy but that could be fixed with some tweaking. Most of the strange noise is gone I think.


With reflection optimization active on the back wall and main pot (default setting of 2). 2 Minutes.

Image

You might want to optimize from there. I think your biggest enemy was the reversed FG settings.

Don't have much time to test but will do more later.

Kzin
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 07 Mar 2012, 19:06

so, i opened your scene and there 2 things which are not that good.
your gauss filter witdh is 1,6. this is very low and will create a really sharp render. to render this with clean aa you will need a lot of aa samples.
the second, lambert like shading with your portal lights shows a noisy rendering. to clean this up you would also need alot more aa sample. so booth things should be changed first.
will now take a closer look. :)

Kzin
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 08 Mar 2012, 09:15

Image

rendersettings are a bit to much, but you want smooth glossis, so ... ;)
i also used the 1 sample approach, because the aa settings are very high, so it makes no sense to use local samples greater then 1.
min 1
max 1600
quality 20
treshold 0.03

rendertime is 25 minutes on my core2quad @2,667ghz and 16 minutes for fg. fg is calculated for the whole 1k render and then loaded from disk (500 rays, 25 int point, denstiy 2 and 1 diffuse bounce).
at the moment i render out a 720p version of the whole image to judge the rendertime.
sampling is really high, i would not use such values for animation or stills but values more like i write some post above and quality is more then enough also with these settings.

from your scene setup, you did also one mistake. you used low intensity lights and activated the lens shader to bring back the brightness of the scene.
you should never do this, dont use the tonemapper to correct your lighting (i rendered without one).

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Maximus
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 08 Mar 2012, 11:31

Kzin wrote:Image

rendersettings are a bit to much, but you want smooth glossis, so ... ;)
i also used the 1 sample approach, because the aa settings are very high, so it makes no sense to use local samples greater then 1.
min 1
max 1600
quality 20
treshold 0.03

rendertime is 25 minutes on my core2quad @2,667ghz and 16 minutes for fg. fg is calculated for the whole 1k render and then loaded from disk (500 rays, 25 int point, denstiy 2 and 1 diffuse bounce).
at the moment i render out a 720p version of the whole image to judge the rendertime.
sampling is really high, i would not use such values for animation or stills but values more like i write some post above and quality is more then enough also with these settings.

from your scene setup, you did also one mistake. you used low intensity lights and activated the lens shader to bring back the brightness of the scene.
you should never do this, dont use the tonemapper to correct your lighting (i rendered without one).
Interesting. I'm going to try what you suggested, i'm a bit concerned about tonemapper. How you light your scene without it then? Since portal lights are a pain to handle without exposure they blown out everything. How did you light the scene without it? If i remove the photo exposure all the lights in scene are blown out and really high in intensity, dunno why you said i had low intensity lights, they appear way too strong to me without the lens.

Thanks again for help

Kzin
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 08 Mar 2012, 12:00

Maximus wrote:
Interesting. I'm going to try what you suggested, i'm a bit concerned about tonemapper. How you light your scene without it then? Since portal lights are a pain to handle without exposure they blown out everything. How did you light the scene without it? If i remove the photo exposure all the lights in scene are blown out and really high in intensity, dunno why you said i had low intensity lights, they appear way too strong to me without the lens.

Thanks again for help
your scene without lens shader renders really dark. i work linear all the time with display gamma correction. you did the gamma 2,2 correction thru the lens shader, your the problem is that also if you output to exr, you bake the gamma 2,2 curve in the image file. perhaps your workflow is the problem here?
if you work linear and with real light intensitys, its not a problem to get correct lighting without lens shader (phys sky gi renders are a bit different, you would end up with a nearly white render, so its best to use a tinemapper here). but you can lit a room really good without the lens shader with proper linear workflow and correct intensitys. also the portal lights are renders with plausible light falloff without to blow out the lighting.

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Maximus
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 08 Mar 2012, 12:16

I use the 2.2 on photographic exposure when i'm inside softimage to see how the render will look, but before i write image to disk i swap it back to gamma 1 and save out to exr.
I have no idea what you mean as real light intensity regarding portals and lights in general. The only real light you can get inside soft afaik are IES, and i'm not usin them here. I must admit i'm totally confused now. Can you share the scene with the lightin setup?

Kzin
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 08 Mar 2012, 12:38

Maximus wrote:I use the 2.2 on photographic exposure when i'm inside softimage to see how the render will look, but before i write image to disk i swap it back to gamma 1 and save out to exr.
I have no idea what you mean as real light intensity regarding portals and lights in general. The only real light you can get inside soft afaik are IES, and i'm not usin them here. I must admit i'm totally confused now. Can you share the scene with the lightin setup?
with real lightintensitys i mean physical light with falloff. you have then intensitys of 500 or more. the reflection of these lights will look way more realistic compared to the old "1 for intensity" lighting method. portal lights are best with some env shader from which they get their intensitys and color. so a realistic high contrast hdr will always produce a more realistic lighting inside a room (beside the fact that portals are only some sort of importance sampling for fg). and with good contrast from outside you will have good contrast inside.

Kzin
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 08 Mar 2012, 19:12

so, heres the 720p rendering:

Image

the exr can be downloaded here:

http://www.2shared.com/file/PGYIHBp4/kitchen_wide_gloss002.html

rendertime is 2h30min on my core2quad@2,667ghz incl final gathering (about 23min for this).
i think this is ok for brute force glossis and way better then the 8 hours you had maximus.
i used gaussian filter with width of 2.
the glossi backwall has only a depth of 2 for reflections, all the other shaders have 3 for reflections.
the lights have also only 1 sample with treshold of 0,03. perhaps this could be reduced more, had not tested this further.
a better and more realistic test would be with textures which reflects instead of arch mat with a simple color.
i will also do a setup with phys skyshader to get some more realistic light colors inside the room and balance the reflection amounts.

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gustavoeb
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by gustavoeb » 08 Mar 2012, 19:54

Nice results Kazin :)
Gustavo Eggert Boehs
Blog: http://www.gustavoeb.com.br/

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Maximus
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 08 Mar 2012, 21:09

Kzin wrote:so, heres the 720p rendering:

Image

the exr can be downloaded here:

http://www.2shared.com/file/PGYIHBp4/kitchen_wide_gloss002.html

rendertime is 2h30min on my core2quad@2,667ghz incl final gathering (about 23min for this).
i think this is ok for brute force glossis and way better then the 8 hours you had maximus.
i used gaussian filter with width of 2.
the glossi backwall has only a depth of 2 for reflections, all the other shaders have 3 for reflections.
the lights have also only 1 sample with treshold of 0,03. perhaps this could be reduced more, had not tested this further.
a better and more realistic test would be with textures which reflects instead of arch mat with a simple color.
i will also do a setup with phys skyshader to get some more realistic light colors inside the room and balance the reflection amounts.
Is this render done with those settings you wrote above?

min 1
max 1600
quality 20
treshold 0.03

I'm tryin to render with those settings but rendertime is just insane. My render was fully textured, bump and everything at 1920. Of course it could be optimized but trying your scene settings i will have a render that will take more than 10 hours for the same size output when the scene gonna be fully textured.
What portal light intensity are you using? Also you using photoexposure at all?

Kzin
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 08 Mar 2012, 22:08

Maximus wrote:
Is this render done with those settings you wrote above?

min 1
max 1600
quality 20
treshold 0.03

I'm tryin to render with those settings but rendertime is just insane. My render was fully textured, bump and everything at 1920. Of course it could be optimized but trying your scene settings i will have a render that will take more than 10 hours for the same size output when the scene gonna be fully textured.
What portal light intensity are you using? Also you using photoexposure at all?
thats the settings i used.
but feel free to change them to get better render times. as i wrote, i would never use such high aa values because i mostly do animations with mb, here you dont know that high sampling.
things like bump can be disabled for glossis. also try to use texture color maps with lower resolution for reflections.
did you use bump for your glossi surfaces? then you can increase the glossi value because the bump itself will also diffuse the reflections by default.
and no, i did not use the photographic lens shader.
the 2 big areas has intensity of 12 and the other 2 uses 4 as intensity.
can you show an image how your rendering looks like?

Kzin
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 08 Mar 2012, 23:35

gustavoeb wrote:Nice results Kazin :)
would be great if you could also do a render in 720 or 1080p with your settings.
i will make an additionel rendertest the next hours in 1080p with reduced max value from 1600 to 800. quality loss should not be that big, lets see whats possible, rendertime wise. ;)

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Maximus
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 09 Mar 2012, 00:04

I've relighted the scene and worked on it. Using min1 max 1000 quality 20 and cutoff 0.01.
Gauss filter 2, light samples from portal light at 9. All glossy samples at 1, except the main metals with are 2 and 3. Rendertime is not that bad, i'll post the result in a few, finishing rendering at 1600x900.

Thanks a lot for everyone's help, getting better.

Max


edit:

here is the render, took 2 hours and half

Image

pretty satisfied with the time/quality, gonna try with lights and a night shot.
I think gauss 2 is a bit too blurred for my taste, its losing eye focus, might try 1.6 or 1.8.
Thanks again for help :)

Kzin
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Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 11:36

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 09 Mar 2012, 09:08

looks nice and rendertime is good.
you are right, it could be a bit sharper in the middle where your pots are.
are you sure you need 9 sample for the portal? because you have alot of glossi surfaces on which you dont see the shadows in that detail that you would miss some shadow samples.
also, have you tryed to also use only 1 sample for the main metal? from my few tests with your scene i did, the best quality is the 1 sample approach with such high aa values.
i am aksing because i want to get sure that you tested it and the settings you used are the best solution for this scene.
because you take away the decision from unifed where more samples should be placed. 9 area samples means mr will render these 9 samples minimum for every shadow effect. if you set it to 2 or 1, mr will render only these samples as minimum and decide where more should be placed (mr will do this also for 9 samples if needed, but with only 2 the error estimation will start earlier). so in your example its possible that you render 9 samples for shadows but 3 or 4 would be enough. and shadow rays are expensive to calculate, so its better to use only the minimum smaples you really need. ;)

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Magog
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Magog » 09 Mar 2012, 09:42

Excellent!!! :-bd

Ebbravo Max! :D

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