kitchen shot

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Maximus
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 04 Mar 2012, 16:28

since i have sunday to throw away, i'm gonna try some settings you told me.
I'm a bit confused about gauss filter, you say its used for sharp image? How so? if its the most blurred filter ever.. In my knowledge mitchell/lanczos are sharp, gauss is just blurring edges.
Does it work different with unified sampling so it produces sharp images?
Also 2:2 what it means? I can just put one single value in mental ray on softimage which is 2. not 2:2.

Another reason why i dont post anything on mental ray forum is that most of the time people there are a bit arrogant, pretending that mental ray works perfectly, also there are almost 0 softimage users, and there are major differences between 3d packages in how mental ray is handled/integrated. So most of the times it always end up like you getting little to none help.

Having someone telling you "hey, in mental ray standalone everything works perfect" is kinda useless (and i saw this happening there) because i dont use mental ray standalone, i use a totally different product. Thats why i post in this forum and not there.

I will try to get your suggestion and post problems there, but i'm a bit frustrated at the moment with the current mental ray/ad situation, mostly because i keep wasting hours and sanity.

Thanks a lot for help and takin time to give feedback, i appreciate it :)
Regarding the scene, i would probably share the whole, its not a problem. Just give me some time to clean stuff.

Max

Kzin
Posts: 432
Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 11:36

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 04 Mar 2012, 17:07

Maximus wrote:since i have sunday to throw away, i'm gonna try some settings you told me.
I'm a bit confused about gauss filter, you say its used for sharp image? How so? if its the most blurred filter ever.. In my knowledge mitchell/lanczos are sharp, gauss is just blurring edges.
Does it work different with unified sampling so it produces sharp images?
Also 2:2 what it means? I can just put one single value in mental ray on softimage which is 2. not 2:2.

Another reason why i dont post anything on mental ray forum is that most of the time people there are a bit arrogant, pretending that mental ray works perfectly, also there are almost 0 softimage users, and there are major differences between 3d packages in how mental ray is handled/integrated. So most of the times it always end up like you getting little to none help.

Having someone telling you "hey, in mental ray standalone everything works perfect" is kinda useless (and i saw this happening there) because i dont use mental ray standalone, i use a totally different product. Thats why i post in this forum and not there.

I will try to get your suggestion and post problems there, but i'm a bit frustrated at the moment with the current mental ray/ad situation, mostly because i keep wasting hours and sanity.

Thanks a lot for help and takin time to give feedback, i appreciate it :)
Regarding the scene, i would probably share the whole, its not a problem. Just give me some time to clean stuff.

Max
the arrogant thing comes from people who are saying "oh look, mr is so bad and crappy piece of software" and things like this. so the people that could help, stopped to awnser to such posts. critique is important, especially to improve things (mr needs this, no doubt about it).

the people who uses mr standalone knows that a lot can be improved.
besides this, one problem is the integration. alot of problems comes from poor integration, like the ibl problem. you can bring in the ibl light in xsi, but you cant render on a farm with this because of the geo shader limitations. another one ist the problem that you cannot use fg and ip's together. its possible with the geo shader, but this does not give you full access to the feature. and then again, you have the problem with the geo shader and its 2 times refresh thing.

the gauss filter, yes, i mean 2 for filter width. the filter renders sharper with smaller width sizes (like all the other aa filters). i use gaussian all the time, width of 2 or 2,5 in most cases, depends on the sharpness i need. sharpness and blurryness has nothing to do with unified or adaptive, its the filter itself.
mitchell and lanczos sharpens the images which can create halos around edges.

SreckoM
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by SreckoM » 04 Mar 2012, 19:14

I agree with Max.

Unfortunately MR already suffer because of bad integration from AD side. I think that 95% of studios using SI are not using MR anymore. Similar is with other packages. I sometimes think that 3dsmax users think that it is shipped with Vray, I did not see job post for 3dsMax that requires MR, always Vray ....

On the other side there is a lot to blame Nvidia or former Mental Images. I think that they become lazy at some point, steady income does that... On good side, things are changing now, forum looks live again .... But Nvidia needs to figure out that their forum is only good for Advanced users, and their % is really small. I really appreciate Davids work, but huge % of people understand just "bla bla bla" from everything he says, it is just too complex for artists. Nowadays important feature of every render engine is ease of use, and MR sometimes looks more complex to use than Renderman, too much workarounds. And this is more evident with SI studios that are using Arnold, even longer render times are not problem when you have smooth workflow, steady development, on time bugfixes, etc ...
And of course that source of many of negative opinions about MR is poor integration, but this is going in circle. Users overall feeling is negative about capability of MR, users switch to another engines, low feedback from them to AD, AD concentrates to other parts of app .... In 3dsMax MR already lost battle, and 3dsMax team in AD is working 100x more on MR than XSI one. I am afraid that new users at begging of their carter are starting to avoid MR. There is much more options to choose from, and if they ask about opinions on forums ...

And to clarify, I am not saying that MR is bad, just that overall opinion, nowadays, is similar to that. Nvidia needs to work HARD to change this.
- H -

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Maximus
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 04 Mar 2012, 19:39

Kzin wrote: for scenes with alot of lights i would suggest david's post on elementalray regarding the light treshold. the physical light can be found under the mental ray lights shader in the rendertree.

and perhaps post your renderings in the mi forum with a list of your problems.
I'm sorry, i was tryin to use the physical_light shader but i cant make it to work, i was reading the help
http://download.autodesk.com/global/doc ... d28e711800 but it doesnt say how to connect nodes.

How i should connect it into render tree? cause i tried physical_light output ->soft light every port and nothing happened. Tried to plug it directly to the Light node, nothing happened. Playing with parameters on every input port, nothing happened.

I never used this shader, so i'm curious how to make it work.

Thanks again for usefull tips

Max

Kzin
Posts: 432
Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 11:36

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 04 Mar 2012, 20:21

SreckoM wrote:I agree with Max.

Unfortunately MR already suffer because of bad integration from AD side. I think that 95% of studios using SI are not using MR anymore. Similar is with other packages. I sometimes think that 3dsmax users think that it is shipped with Vray, I did not see job post for 3dsMax that requires MR, always Vray ....

On the other side there is a lot to blame Nvidia or former Mental Images. I think that they become lazy at some point, steady income does that... On good side, things are changing now, forum looks live again .... But Nvidia needs to figure out that their forum is only good for Advanced users, and their % is really small. I really appreciate Davids work, but huge % of people understand just "bla bla bla" from everything he says, it is just too complex for artists. Nowadays important feature of every render engine is ease of use, and MR sometimes looks more complex to use than Renderman, too much workarounds. And this is more evident with SI studios that are using Arnold, even longer render times are not problem when you have smooth workflow, steady development, on time bugfixes, etc ...
And of course that source of many of negative opinions about MR is poor integration, but this is going in circle. Users overall feeling is negative about capability of MR, users switch to another engines, low feedback from them to AD, AD concentrates to other parts of app .... In 3dsMax MR already lost battle, and 3dsMax team in AD is working 100x more on MR than XSI one. I am afraid that new users at begging of their carter are starting to avoid MR. There is much more options to choose from, and if they ask about opinions on forums ...

And to clarify, I am not saying that MR is bad, just that overall opinion, nowadays, is similar to that. Nvidia needs to work HARD to change this.
mr in max is a bad joke, cant agree more. what ad did and does here is a shame and the user is paying money every year for this. epic win for ad because the user gave up and buy vray. it cant be better for ad because the mass of users dont want a better mr integration simply because they dont use it anymore. i dont know whats happen in 2 years here, zap works now for ad and should help to optimize the integration, so lets see.

what you mean with easy of use is integration. look at vray and its out of the box settings. much better compared to mr ones. the problem is that everyone is talking this to ad since years, but nothing happens. and i dont know if this will change in the future. look at maya, what happens here? they opened the integration so you can access feature thru string options (besides the mentalcore thing, 3rd party mr ui). i think this is the future also for xsi. i dont say this is good, but you will have access to all feature thru such a system.

and yes, i know alot of people which used mr. i met them all in the arnold mailing list.

Kzin
Posts: 432
Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 11:36

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 04 Mar 2012, 20:23

Maximus wrote:
Kzin wrote: for scenes with alot of lights i would suggest david's post on elementalray regarding the light treshold. the physical light can be found under the mental ray lights shader in the rendertree.

and perhaps post your renderings in the mi forum with a list of your problems.
I'm sorry, i was tryin to use the physical_light shader but i cant make it to work, i was reading the help
http://download.autodesk.com/global/doc ... d28e711800 but it doesnt say how to connect nodes.

How i should connect it into render tree? cause i tried physical_light output ->soft light every port and nothing happened. Tried to plug it directly to the Light node, nothing happened. Playing with parameters on every input port, nothing happened.

I never used this shader, so i'm curious how to make it work.

Thanks again for usefull tips

Max
i use this shadersetup, it works really good.

Image

User avatar
Maximus
Posts: 1103
Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 15:45

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 04 Mar 2012, 20:46

Kzin wrote:
Maximus wrote:
Kzin wrote: for scenes with alot of lights i would suggest david's post on elementalray regarding the light treshold. the physical light can be found under the mental ray lights shader in the rendertree.

and perhaps post your renderings in the mi forum with a list of your problems.
I'm sorry, i was tryin to use the physical_light shader but i cant make it to work, i was reading the help
http://download.autodesk.com/global/doc ... d28e711800 but it doesnt say how to connect nodes.

How i should connect it into render tree? cause i tried physical_light output ->soft light every port and nothing happened. Tried to plug it directly to the Light node, nothing happened. Playing with parameters on every input port, nothing happened.

I never used this shader, so i'm curious how to make it work.

Thanks again for usefull tips

Max
i use this shadersetup, it works really good.

Image

Many thanks again Kzin, have any idea why when i turn on "area light" it stops working? Apparently can use this setup only if its not an area light source? What if i need soft shadows?

Thanks again,
Max

Kzin
Posts: 432
Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 11:36

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 04 Mar 2012, 21:19

strange, area lights are working here. have you used the same values for the physlightshader?

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Maximus
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Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 15:45

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 05 Mar 2012, 05:46

Kzin wrote:strange, area lights are working here. have you used the same values for the physlightshader?
i used the same setup as you showed me. Blackbody->physical light -> light.
If in the last node named "light" the orange one, i turn on the "area light" on, it doesnt work anymore, i just double checked, doesnt work if the shape is seet as rectangle and disk. Works only with sphere and cylinder for some weird reason.

Kzin
Posts: 432
Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 11:36

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 05 Mar 2012, 09:31

Maximus wrote:
Kzin wrote:strange, area lights are working here. have you used the same values for the physlightshader?
i used the same setup as you showed me. Blackbody->physical light -> light.
If in the last node named "light" the orange one, i turn on the "area light" on, it doesnt work anymore, i just double checked, doesnt work if the shape is seet as rectangle and disk. Works only with sphere and cylinder for some weird reason.
mmh, i am using rectangle shapes most time.
have you tryed a new, clean scene?
which version of si do you use?

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Maximus
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Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 15:45

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 05 Mar 2012, 09:40

tested on a new fresh scene, using soft 2012 x64bit SAP. Its not working unless i use sphere or cylinder. Yay more bugs

Kzin
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Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 11:36

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 05 Mar 2012, 10:02

Maximus wrote:tested on a new fresh scene, using soft 2012 x64bit SAP. Its not working unless i use sphere or cylinder. Yay more bugs
disc, object and rectangle area lights with physlight and blackbody.
Image
this is si2012 sap, but i tested this also with si2012 and it works.
could you send me your clean testscene, so i can take a look?

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Maximus
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Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 15:45

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 05 Mar 2012, 10:16

here it is
Attachments
Scene.rar
(90.35 KiB) Downloaded 59 times

SreckoM
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Re: kitchen shot

Post by SreckoM » 05 Mar 2012, 10:23

It works here too, I use point light, maybe that makes difference?
- H -

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Maximus
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Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 15:45

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Maximus » 05 Mar 2012, 10:25

switchin to point make it works but it gives a total weird output, like if the light is coming reversed, from the opposie side of the light itself..

Kzin
Posts: 432
Joined: 09 Jun 2009, 11:36

Re: kitchen shot

Post by Kzin » 05 Mar 2012, 10:25

Maximus wrote:here it is
ah, ok, now i see.
you used a spotlight, that does not work. its the same like in vray, spotlights does not exist in real world as a lightsource. use pointlights for this and it should work.

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