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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012, 00:13 
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P.S.: For the storage of the clumping guide position: Shouldn't it be possible to create a new topology with the new ICE modeling nodes with the smoothed out particle positions? At least that could be a way to store this kind of data. As I never touched the modeling compounds I didn't succeed with creating a topology from just the point positions (add vertex). Sounded easy, but I guess I need to figure this stuff out.


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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012, 01:33 
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Pancho wrote:
Wow!

But for an animation? How would I deform my hair mesh with the animated mesh? For proper results I guess there is no way around animating the (low res) mesh and then subdivide it afterwards (increase the sub d levels via the + key). Hull deformation is way too sloppy. How would this be done inside softimage?



GATOR is your friend, for all sort of transferring the 'classic' operators. Also, in Softimage, model > poly.mesh > subdivision, transfers the classic operators too. But I'd choose GATOR, it's not topology. dependant.
In mentioned 'deform hair' sample from kH3, hair is deformed by deformed copy of emitter mesh.
Shouldn't be hard to make some special ICE cage deformer, it only depends to which level you want to keep the fidelity against performance..

Just me, again, I'd try to avoid curves.

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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012, 08:53 
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O.k. But is there an alternative for storing the "grown" strands? A curve would survive storing of the softimage file, a strand not. Would I cache the "growth simulation" and reload it at a certain frame. Just wonder whether I could apply dynamics on top of this. That's the reason why I thought creating polygons from strands could help, if there is a way to convert them back into strands.

In the end it comes to storing 10-20 positions per strand. Maps would cost a lot of time and aren't easy to change. Loads of baking. Something like a "Save array" (strandpositions) would come in really handy, if it works for the whole mesh.

I'll try to stay away from curves! : )


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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012, 11:03 
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Pancho wrote:
O.k. But is there an alternative for storing the "grown" strands? A curve would survive storing of the softimage file, a strand not. Would I cache the "growth simulation" and reload it at a certain frame. Just wonder whether I could apply dynamics on top of this. That's the reason why I thought creating polygons from strands could help, if there is a way to convert them back into strands.

In the end it comes to storing 10-20 positions per strand. Maps would cost a lot of time and aren't easy to change. Loads of baking. Something like a "Save array" (strandpositions) would come in really handy, if it works for the whole mesh.


Unless guides are procedurally modeled in ICE, and they resides in modeling stack... I'm afraid no, at least no only-with-ICE-nodes. That's drawback of always live operators.
Curve looks like a most logical way.
Here I feel free to boring you with another sample from kH3, called 'in between curves'. It has what is usually called 'tangent space interpolation'. As long as you have a tangent map,
strands interpolates 'around' the curved surface, so you need much smaller count of curves.
Didn't tried this one with fur, anyway....

Regarding strand count, some external renderers for SI, exactly 3delight that I know, are able to render curves instead of visible strand segments - so strand count could be even 4-5 or something, for simple shape.

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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012, 03:53 
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Oh the powah! That inbetween curves file looks the friendliest so far and since it has fewer curves with bezier handles to shape the base hair pose then I think I'd like to see what I could do with this technique. It seems way better than any other guide creation system I've used.

Mathaeus, what does this cube filter do in that scene? Anyway, I've been reading all these Kristinka threads today. Extremely interesting. I just have to filter out the stuff that I can actually use and animate from the stuff that is well beyond me at the moment. Thanks!

So the idea with the dynamics with these strands is to maybe create box deformers around the head so I can animate the (shorter) locks of hair? I think I'd like to animate a few strand deformers over sticking strips of geometry to the strands some how and using syflex.


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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012, 07:02 
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So I've been doing my best to understand the anatomy of these hair setups. (I find this very interesting in case you guys haven't noticed. :-B ) I really want to find a way I can hand animate these nurbs deformers but without creating these "over-head" situations you keep warning us about. %-( Dynamics are cool but I don't think I'd have the time or desire to really sit and tweak settings all day hoping the collisions look good after a 10 minute calculation. (I'll save that time for fluid Point cloud sims) :-w ; so for someone like me I think I can make something look good, stylized and interesting by keyframing simple motions for the deformers.

So lets start with this first setup in the attached pict. What you have is:
(My simplified artist view of this.)

-) A Point cloud stuck onto the contour of a nurbs surface mesh.

-) This point cloud draws strands and conforms to the direction of some curves that somehow represent another cloud of points. The point cloud being the points on the curve?

-) These point cloud curves move-to and follow the contour of another group of nurbs surfaces/deformers.

-) Some of these nurbs surfaces are constrained to the two box nulls in the scene and move with it. I guess they are there as a proxy for where the head and body could go.

Does that loosely describe what I'm seeing here?

So my question is, what would be the best way to keyframe these nurbs deformers (not procedurally but by eyeballing them and placing by hand), which in turn would drive the hair strands. I know how I could do it, but I'm not sure which way would be more efficient; since you often talk about how all these operator stacks are "live" and are therefore constantly being computed per frame. . . . So I guess that means that the more keyframes that get applied to the nurbs deformers "guide containers" we suffer from double transforms or something like that? Or does this overhead only happen if we animate the curves before the nurbs surfaces?

Thanks for any hints on this.


Attachments:
Animating Deformers.jpg
Animating Deformers.jpg [ 188.81 KiB | Viewed 2573 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012, 04:21 
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JPWestmas wrote:
So my question is, what would be the best way to keyframe these nurbs deformers (not procedurally but by eyeballing them and placing by hand), which in turn would drive the hair strands. I know how I could do it, but I'm not sure which way would be more efficient; since you often talk about how all these operator stacks are "live" and are therefore constantly being computed per frame. . . . So I guess that means that the more keyframes that get applied to the nurbs deformers "guide containers" we suffer from double transforms or something like that? Or does this overhead only happen if we animate the curves before the nurbs surfaces?

Thanks for any hints on this.


Hello,

I hope I'll add some setup, tomorrow or so. Not exactly animating the 'form generators', this is tricky because of good number of distance - dependent queries, moving them could cause 'jumping' from one to another.
More like wrapper mesh, which you generate from NURBS or something else. Just need to take look which way gives a nicer performance.

Thank You for playing with this stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012, 04:33 
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Mathaeus wrote:
JPWestmas wrote:
So my question is, what would be the best way to keyframe these nurbs deformers (not procedurally but by eyeballing them and placing by hand), which in turn would drive the hair strands. I know how I could do it, but I'm not sure which way would be more efficient; since you often talk about how all these operator stacks are "live" and are therefore constantly being computed per frame. . . . So I guess that means that the more keyframes that get applied to the nurbs deformers "guide containers" we suffer from double transforms or something like that? Or does this overhead only happen if we animate the curves before the nurbs surfaces?

Thanks for any hints on this.


Hello,

I hope I'll add some setup, tomorrow or so. Not exactly animating the 'form generators', this is tricky because of good number of distance - dependent queries, moving them could cause 'jumping' from one to another.
More like wrapper mesh, which you generate from NURBS or something else. Just need to take look which way gives a nicer performance.

Thank You for playing with this stuff.


Yeah that would definitely help if you would do that.

I'll see what I can find. This is indeed a super nice way to setup a complex wig. Thanks again for all this.


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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2012, 20:51 
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JPWestmas wrote:
So my question is, what would be the best way to keyframe these nurbs deformers (not procedurally but by eyeballing them and placing by hand), which in turn would drive the hair strands.

Hello

here you go. Deformations are applied in pairs (that's a usual method in ICE). Static and deformed emitter, static and deformed hull. Everything should stay at zero transform, only deformation is "safe". Hull should be mesh, only. Generally you want higher mesh resolution than strand resolution, smooth hull as possible as well. Because it using as much fast, "faceted" method for transfer.

I've added some test animation.

'deform by hull' node goes anywhere after 'form' nodes (nodes which usually have some geometry input). For reasonable performance, it should go before hair filler. For later use, you just export the node in same folder, where kH stuff is.

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 Post subject: Re: Kristinka Hair 3.0 released
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2012, 19:10 
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Hey man, that's excellent! I was thinking about bringing in some characters I animated in messiah. I assume at this point that I could very well constrain the scalp surface of the wig to the verticies of a head that has point cache on it?? In otherwords, what is the method you use to constrain the scalp triangles to the head triangles? Is it using a point constraint? I'll keep looking ^.^.


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