Tim Borgmann effect - knocking ice - beginner

[cnever]

Hi All

After I kinda high jacked Maximus's thread Daniel suggested I rather start a new thread, that I totally agree with.
I don't speak a word German and trying to dissect Tim Borgmann's videos is quite difficult. Think it is just cause I was getting involved with ICE last year and then the company I worked at kinda just discarded Softimage and I had to work with other software (really sucked)

But kinda getting back into SI I am leaning toward ICE again. Just badly want to crack the fundamentals. So that I can truly understand how to build things. I enjoy the mathematical meats organic meats beautiful renders. Great example is Tim Borgmann.

So I am starting this thread in the hope that I can get help with figuring out how to accomplish the effects TB used in plexus opener. Think would be best to maybe concentrate on the first one and then move on I suppose?

Please this is a thread to take hopefully me (& others) from grasping very basic things to achieve very complex scenes.
Hope to hear from you all!

Thanks

[Daniel Brassard]

OK, let's start with some information to build our knowledge. In the video, Tim propose two sites for reference where to get ideas and useful information. They are:

http://www.monophyl.com
and
http://www.andynicholas.com

The monophyl site is interesting and our first experiment will be based on their stand work.

http://monophyl.com/?p=1149
http://monophyl.com/?p=1110

Especially watch the video and read the "avoiding simulation" thread. This is going to be the basis for Tim's first effect. Download the compounds as well, they are going to be useful.

[bradworst]

This is a very good idea. I am with you, guys!!

[pdesopo]

I was trying something alike here: http://www.si-community.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2285
but still struggling...
Count me in.

[Daniel Brassard]

Because Tim's effect is loosely based on Polynoid work, how about we start with Polynoid Cheap ICE trick number 1 and the avoid simulation side thread.

Download the scene associated with the cheap ICE trick number 1 at http://www.monophyl.com and let's see how Polynoid put those nodes together. Don't forget to download the provided nodes. Two of them (create stand and strand Fcurve) are used by Tim to create the first effect!

[cnever]

Hi All

Sorry for the delay, only had a hour now to really dig deep and try and figure out the different nodes.

I had a look at polynoids stuff and tried to create a very simple replica with my own understanding.
In the image is the tree to create random points in 3D space. Then creating strands that are between the point in space and the null. When moving the null closer or further the strand also grows or shrinks. The direction does follow the null but only in the general direction. (they don't come together in the end).

I know this might seem pretty silly. But I think for me grasping a little more on these nodes helped.
I would love to know how to actually make the strands render and also make them look good. - first problem I have

- then I will worry about creating more control for the strands (with help from polynoid).

Also when we are talking about first effect. Exactly which one are we referring to. First one I have is the displacement and break of a mesh.

[cnever]

Hi Daniel

To be able to render strands do you have to create another pcloud that extrudes a mesh along the strand that was created or in the same tree.
Any direction welcome.

Thanks

[Daniel Brassard]

just add two ports to your set data node below port self.strandposition. Name the attributes "self.Shape" and "self.Size"

[cnever]

Woweeee, talk about the silence.... I need more time...
But please can anyone direct me in the direction to get particles and strands to look good in renders - simulation is hard but crackable (sometimes) but would love to know the workflow to get mesh/particle/strands looking as good as Tim Borgmann

[Tekano]

Cnever, Mr Borgman has developed many different styles of rendering over the years. there is simply not a 'render strands in the style of Tim Borgman' button. I also image that some of the things that you see are not just one isolated effect or a single beauty pass either and incorporate a whole sequence of simulation and render passes to get the finished desired look.

In order to proceed, please provide one example image or style that you would like to achieve or are struggling with and am sure we can take it from there and help you. right now your request is too vague and open-ended. perhaps explain the difficulties in Rendering you are encountering or even the steps you tried but failed. It may help the next person along as well.

as an aside, 4 years ago I too struggled with rendering strands at first because a) I did not understand them and b) the basic example scene setup is to render with a volume shader.. which is most unintuitive! - so I neglected them for years. thanks to Tim's (and others!) creative vision and Eric Mootz's tools and plugins Strands are coming back to the fore again and are now easier than ever to render and take to places they have not been before, even though it may not seem that way to you just now. so please, ask questions - the answers will help everybody.

[cnever]

there is simply not a 'render strands in the style of Tim Borgman' button.

Hi Tekano

Sorry if I were vague but I did not at all try to get a Tim Borgman button, not at all. I love to know the science/method behind things so that I can actually do it on various things. Grasping and building is way better then just getting. So I will delve into this again and will post some questions or problems.

Lets hope it doesn't take me 10 months again

[Tekano]

cnever thats cool, I understand your frustration and hope you did not take it as an accusation, just trying to focus and narrow down to specifics of where its not working for you. recently got into strands again for some R & D long hair style dynamics (and rendering) and thoroughly enjoyed the process so am feeling confident that someone here can help you. will keep an eye on this thread, (haha)

[cnever]

Sorry for the delay. But had time to go look at a very old compound. Nothing special and I am sure there is one out there that does this way better. In fact if someone could help me decipher it a little. Cause I tried but just not feeling comfortable with it.

My understanding of this is as follows:
Currently this strand is taking the position of point A (starting point) and then gets the positions of neighboring particles, that I will call point B just for clarity. Then with linear interpolation you get a distance... kinda? (some more explanation here would help

Then that distance gets drawn by more points that then creates the illusion of a straight strand but in fact is just a lot of points?

QUESTIONS:

• • Is this the way strands work, a lot of points that form a shape?
  • When I increase the number of neighboring points naturally points increase due to more "lines" getting drawn but also the repeat with counter node that is connected to this (self._np). Why is this set up like this the repeater I mean? If I use a normal integer for num of iterations for the repeat_with_counter node the number of points grow exponentially and soon my machine will die ( with every increment)
  
  • How could I get close to the still frame supplied render wise? (will post it just after this one - maximum 3 attachements)

[cnever]

the frame

[Bullit]

I have read that a strand is a sequence of points.

[cnever]

I have read that a strand is a sequence of points.

Thanks for feedback Bullit - Ha just shows you how little I know. Where did you read this, do you perhaps have a link? The thing that worries me is that I have a very descent machine and it can slow down quite quickly due to the amount of points, for example Tim's stuff seems to be able to melt down a mobo if you look at it.